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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-02-27, 2:29 PM #7841
I guess what people can't seem to agree on is that this kind of behavior (edit: that is, identity politics) is some kind of third rail. Rorty thought so, Reid doesn't seem to. Is identity politics inherently dangerous? Am I racist for suggesting this? And is it possible to win an argument with somebody who thinks I am?
2018-02-27, 2:32 PM #7842
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The purpose of socialism is to reduce authority overall and with it the power to exploit others.


And the purpose of the United States is to fight socialism / communism / leftism / whatever :downs:

so...
2018-02-27, 2:45 PM #7843
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
And the purpose of the United States is to fight socialism / communism / leftism / whatever :downs:

so...


To maximize the ability of the hereditary economic elite to exploit others, and to minimize the exposure of the elite to the demands of the public. Worldwide. Yes.
2018-02-27, 2:45 PM #7844
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I guess what people can't seem to agree on is that this kind of behavior (edit: that is, identity politics) is some kind of third rail. Rorty thought so, Reid doesn't seem to. Is identity politics inherently dangerous? Am I racist for suggesting this? And is it possible to win an argument with somebody who thinks I am?


Actually, I think I found out how to win any argument on the left: argue that the other side automatically loses when they use certain language or forms of argument.

Reid was suspicious about Eversor's language betraying some assumptions that didn't sit well with him. But now we're raising the possibility that his motivation for doing so is to be similarly doubted, simply by classifying it as identity politics?

What gives? Are we all just infighting, or did I lose track of the substance of the original disagreement?
2018-02-27, 2:46 PM #7845
But TVs are so cheap now!
2018-02-27, 2:55 PM #7846
Maybe the solution is to encode all potential disputes among the left into a giant static type, and then typecheck every argument to ensure that all the rules of discourse are being followed.

Although maybe there was a philosopher who tried to do that?
2018-02-27, 3:04 PM #7847
Reid didn't articulate very clearly what his qualms with identity politics are.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-27, 3:18 PM #7848
Wait, I thought we were accusing him of playing that game, not the other way around.
2018-02-27, 3:32 PM #7849
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Identity politics (on both sides) is an intentional distraction to keep people from talking about economics.


No, it used that way in discourse most of the time, and especially when used by a major political party, but that's not what it is intrinsically.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Juxtapose against BLM members ****ting all over Bernie Sanders for suggesting that black problems are mostly economic problems, and throwing in behind a pro-oligarch identity politics candidate. It’s a pretty sharp and grotesque decline in the quality of discourse, and indeed the understanding of human plight, from the original Civil Rights movement - a decline that tracks perfectly with the expansion of this identity politics thing in academia.

Sorry for the whitesplaining.


That sounds to me more like how centrist Democrats who supported BLM interpreted it.
2018-02-27, 3:42 PM #7850
Can you clarify that post? One of the rules I wrote to myself after our last bitter disagreement was to first ask for clarification whenever a post makes me go, WTF?

In particular that last sentence is quite confusing to me.
2018-02-27, 3:43 PM #7851
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I guess what people can't seem to agree on is that this kind of behavior (edit: that is, identity politics) is some kind of third rail. Rorty thought so, Reid doesn't seem to. Is identity politics inherently dangerous? Am I racist for suggesting this? And is it possible to win an argument with somebody who thinks I am?


To me, it's not the idea of identity politics itself, it's more how it's used. I agree that identity politics is used poorly often in public discourse, but people need to temper the reactions.

For instance, there's no shortage of stories about cops turning up KKK members, and reports of discriminatory policing. A discussion about that is impossible without race.
2018-02-27, 3:43 PM #7852
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Can you clarify that post? One of the rules I wrote to myself after our last bitter disagreement was to first ask for clarification whenever a post makes me go, WTF?

In particular that last sentence is quite confusing to me.


Which post? Sorry
2018-02-27, 3:46 PM #7853
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Actually, I think I found out how to win any argument on the left: argue that the other side automatically loses when they use certain language or forms of argument.


P⇒Q, ¬P ∴ ¬Q

That's an argument with poor form, right? I'm basically saying his argument is like that, not that the conclusion is necessarily false.
2018-02-27, 3:56 PM #7854
Originally posted by Reid:
Which post? Sorry


The one where you said that centrist democrats would make the argument Jon`C was describing. This may make sense but as stated it's not intuitive to me at all.
2018-02-27, 3:57 PM #7855
Originally posted by Reid:
P⇒Q, ¬P ∴ ¬Q

That's an argument with poor form, right? I'm basically saying his argument is like that, not that the conclusion is necessarily false.


I guess I lost track of the discussion, then. I assumed the basic disagreement was about whether or not he was wrong to empathize too much with arguments you see as something a conservative would make.
2018-02-27, 4:07 PM #7856
Originally posted by Reid:
To me, it's not the idea of identity politics itself, it's more how it's used. I agree that identity politics is used poorly often in public discourse, but people need to temper the reactions.

For instance, there's no shortage of stories about cops turning up KKK members, and reports of discriminatory policing. A discussion about that is impossible without race.


In my mind, identity politics is about inserting things like gender and race into discussions that they don't really have anything to do with (at least, not directly).

Talking about the facts surrounding discriminatory behavior is not identity politics.
2018-02-27, 4:08 PM #7857
Seeing racial issues everywhere, so long as race is tangentially related? Identity politics.
2018-02-27, 4:10 PM #7858
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
The one where you said that centrist democrats would make the argument Jon`C was describing. This may make sense but as stated it's not intuitive to me at all.


Oh, it's just a common refrain from anti-Bernie liberals that people who supported Bernie were secretly racist. Those were the people who said Bernie is a white nationalist, and it was very much an opposition viewpoint. Nearly all gung-ho Clinton supporters accept some version of it.

Part of that would include people who supported both BLM and were anti-Bernie Democrats voicing their opinions that BLM is anti-Bernie. No, there are people in BLM who support Sanders too, it's just.. well guess what, Democrats get to basically control the narrative of any political movement "beneath" them, so to speak, so they could turn BLM into an anti-Bernie thing when I don't think many of the people in it would have felt that way otherwise.
2018-02-27, 4:26 PM #7859
That to me sounds awfully close to conceding the first part of your post:

Originally posted by Reid:
No, it used that way in discourse most of the time, and especially when used by a major political party, but that's not what it is intrinsically.


in which you were protesting

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Identity politics (on both sides) is an intentional distraction to keep people from talking about economics.


But then if the DNC really did conspire to use identity politics to whip up opposition to Sanders, wouldn't that support Jon's point?
2018-02-27, 4:30 PM #7860
I mean, what good is it to rally around the cause of identity politics (which indeed is what universities have been doing) if it is so easily used to slime politicians like Bernie Sanders? That kind of weaponry is too dangerous to have lying around.
2018-02-27, 4:38 PM #7861
I mean maybe it wasn't identity politics per se. Accusations of racism have always been around, and probably have been used to discredit perfectly good (or otherwise good) politicians plenty of times.
2018-02-27, 4:44 PM #7862
OTOH, maybe the really insidious effect of identity politics lies more in the fact that it displaced the sort of general, pro-worker leftist thought that could have made BLM supporters immune to this kind of trivial manipulation.

As it stands, the Democratic party is a big tent party that rallies around many non-economic issues, and I feel that with better education about economics, this could have been avoided.
2018-02-27, 4:46 PM #7863
Of course, this is what Richard Rorty said in 1997 would someday happen, and moreover, that it (identity politics) would be self-defeating!

[quote=Richard Rorty]
[M]embers of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers — themselves desperately afraid of being downsized — are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for — someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots. …

One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past 40 years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion. … All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet.
[/quote]
2018-02-27, 4:47 PM #7864
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
But then if the DNC really did conspire to use identity politics to whip up opposition to Sanders, wouldn't that support Jon's point?


It's used that way but it's not that intrinsically. Eversor seems to think it's completely bull****.
2018-02-27, 4:52 PM #7865
Haha OK. Let's let him respond when he wakes up.

I'm not sure I think it's complete bull****, but if Eversor wants to argue that, I think he'll find some strong supporting evidence for it in my last few posts.
2018-02-27, 4:54 PM #7866
Also, at the end of the day, let's not forget that it might not be a good use of our time to spend too much effort arguing what words mean.
2018-02-27, 4:58 PM #7867
(mostly my fault)
2018-02-27, 5:13 PM #7868
Having said all that, I don't take for granted the socialist worldview that everything can be solved through a socialist policy.

There are probably two reasons for this:
  1. I live in the United States, so I don't know **** about socialism in the first place
  2. I live in the United States, so I am led to believe either that socialism doesn't exist, or that there is no point in trying to bring it about, since I have no reason to believe this will ever happen here

So I guess that leaves all us Americans to go about our business and continue to fight over race until the bitter end as a substitute for actual progress :downs:
2018-02-27, 5:46 PM #7869
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Having said all that, I don't take for granted the socialist worldview that everything can be solved through a socialist policy
You should. Take a close enough look at the complex tapestry of any person’s oppressed identities re: intersectionality, and all of the suffering (i.e. actual oppression, versus expressed preferences of others) is because of economic factors.

That said, economics is the ultimate mechanism of oppression. It’s the how. It’s not the why of oppression. It’s not the history of oppression. You’ll need to look elsewhere for that.

Quote:
There are probably two reasons for this:
  1. I live in the United States, so I don't know **** about socialism in the first place
  2. I live in the United States, so I am led to believe either that socialism doesn't exist, or that there is no point in trying to bring it about, since I have no reason to believe this will ever happen here

So I guess that leaves all us Americans to go about our business and continue to fight over race until the bitter end as a substitute for actual progress :downs:


Feigned oppression world champions since 1776
2018-02-27, 7:02 PM #7870
Originally posted by Eversor:
I think I'm someone who doesn't assume that conservatives are arguing in bad faith and who tries pretty hard to understand why conservative opinions are reasonable and why they appeal to conservatives. I think a lot of left-of-center people interpret that as contrarianism.


I believe that because I've spent time studying the history of conservatism in modern times. Most people aren't conservative because they read Edmund Burke. People are conservative because there's been a large, concerted effort to make people conservative. I know that's a bold claim, but I think the historical evidence justifies that view.

One book that was highly influential in forming this view was the book "The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes" by Johnathan Rose. In this, he documents, well the intellectual life of the British working class, and contrasts them somewhat to the intellectual life of the British elite. The British working class were highly educated. People would pay children to read texts to them as they worked. They would read Marxist texts. They wrote and published their own newspapers. The elite classes were basically Philistines, by contrast, people make the mistake that since historically, educated->elite makes people think that elite must imply educated. But that's very much not true.

The point, though, is that this class of pretty well educated people basically universally formed collectivist ideas. They weren't Marxist, in fact were even opposed to Marxism, but valued their self worth and independence, and hated waged labor. The key idea is, when working people actually engage intellectually and politically, the force is basically always ""far"" left. And that's really the trend throughout history, and it persists today: the majority wants things much differently than they are.

But, the age of monarchism and aristocracy was ending. And the elites knew about these collectivist tides, they were occurring all over and the Soviets took over Russia. So they came up with a plan to save democracy: they would "win the battles for the minds of men", by creating concerted propaganda efforts to convince people of the right things. You can read the foundational text, "Propaganda", by Edward Bernays:

Quote:
THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.

Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet.

They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership, their ability to supply needed ideas and by their key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude one chooses to take toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons—a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty million—who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.

It is not usually realized how necessary these invisible governors are to the orderly functioning of our group life. In theory, every citizen may vote for whom he pleases. Our Constitution does not envisage political parties as part of the mechanism of government, and its framers seem not to have pictured to themselves the existence in our national politics of anything like the modern political machine. But the American voters soon found that without organization and direction their individual votes, cast, perhaps, for dozens or hundreds of candidates, would produce nothing but confusion. Invisible government, in the shape of rudimentary political parties, arose almost overnight. Ever since then we have agreed, for the sake of simplicity and practicality, that party machines should narrow down the field of choice to two candidates, or at most three or four.

In theory, every citizen makes up his mind on public questions and matters of private conduct. In practice, if all men had to study for themselves the abstruse economic, political, and ethical data involved in every question, they would find it impossible to come to a conclusion about anything. We have voluntarily agreed to let an invisible government sift the data and high-spot the outstanding issues so that our field of choice shall be narrowed to practical proportions. From our leaders and the media they use to reach the public, we accept the evidence and the demarcation of issues bearing upon public questions; from some ethical teacher, be it a minister, a favorite essayist, or merely prevailing opinion, we accept a standardized code of social conduct to which we conform most of the time.

In theory, everybody buys the best and cheapest commodities offered him on the market. In practice, if every one went around pricing, and chemically testing before purchasing, the dozens of soaps or fabrics or brands of bread which are for sale, economic life would become hopelessly jammed. To avoid such confusion, society consents to have its choice narrowed to ideas and objects brought to its attention through propaganda of all kinds. There is consequently a vast and continuous effort going on to capture our minds in the interest of some policy or commodity or idea.

It might be better to have, instead of propaganda and special pleading, committees of wise men who would choose our rulers, dictate our conduct, private and public, and decide upon the best types of clothes for us to wear and the best kinds of food for us to eat. But we have chosen the opposite method, that of open competition. We must find a way to make free competition function with reasonable smoothness. To achieve this society has consented to permit free competition to be organized by leadership and propaganda.

Some of the phenomena of this process are criticized—the manipulation of news, the inflation of personality, and the general ballyhoo by which politicians and commercial products and social ideas are brought to the consciousness of the masses. The instruments by which public opinion is organized and focused may be misused. But such organization and focusing are necessary to orderly life.

As civilization has become more complex, and as the need for invisible government has been increasingly demonstrated, the technical means have been invented and developed by which opinion may be regimented.
With the printing press and the newspaper, the railroad, the telephone, telegraph, radio and airplanes, ideas can be spread rapidly and even instantaneously over the whole of America.


Of course, this was a key text in developing Nazi propaganda, and was a baseline text read by many American industrialists. This is the sort of thing the people with power and privilege read, and this is how they thought to organize.

So how did this take effect? It seems outlandish. But, there's actually a solid historical record explaining how this "invisible governance through propaganda" works. Remember, during the 1930's, labor won a bunch of power in the United States. I mean, that did lead to the greatest era of the middle class world wide, but it cut into profits and the wealthiest earned less. So, they wanted to fight it. Starting in the late 1940's and on, American elites began disseminating their views down through the ranks. The history of this is well-detailed in "Selling Free Enterprise" by Elizabeth Fones-Wolf takes over.

This book details basically the early parts of the rise of neoliberal/neoconservative economics and politics, and is very helpful in trying to understand the origins of modern conservatism. Wealthy elites targeted anything and anywhere they could to disseminate propaganda that was: anti-union, pro-individualist (as that's anti-collectivist), anti-civil rights apologia for business owners. Some vectors include: "donating" textbooks to schools that represented history in the way the wealthy elites preferred, writing religious tracts that explain how Capitalism begets good Christians and Protestant work ethic stuff and disseminating it through churches. Of course it was always framed as anti-communist stuff, but their intent is clear from some of the correspondences she reflects on: to crush any and all organized labor, to create larger profits for themselves. Stuff like that is why I don't attend church very much in America, even though I have no problem with religious beliefs. It's because churches more than any other institution have been hijacked and adapted to be megaphones for a sort of pro-capitalist, anti-collectivist world view. Honestly I can't do her book service here. She goes through a bunch of historical documents: letters, texts, films, a large archive of evidence of how drastic, widespread and deep corporate propaganda efforts go in America. It's not small, it's deep, and extremely troubling when you shed light on the actual historical work.

And this propaganda manifested itself nowhere more than in the Republican party. I don't think most people who believe they are conservative know why they believe what they do. I can guarantee you though, it has much more to do with where they were born and what people they were surrounded by, and what institutions they were placed into, than some actual intellectual understanding of abstract conservatism. I mean, if you actually poll people who vote Republican, they stretch pretty broadly around all degrees of economic beliefs, there are a good amount (literally, like a third) who are essentially Democrats in how they think government should run. There's no such split in Democrats. In fact, Democrats largely agree on basically all issues, Republicans are much more scattershot.

In any case, basically what happened in America is what the Russians did in the 2016 election, but instead of some scary Russian behind it, it was wealthy Americans, who did it much better and successfully, and have been doing it for decades. And the Republican party is their primary haven. And I've cited three historical works which go in depth discussing the specifics of how that arose. I highly recommend anyone who's actually interested in this to go and read the texts I mentioned, because it will make it clear just how artificial American political beliefs are.
2018-02-27, 7:03 PM #7871
Originally posted by Jon`C:
To maximize the ability of the hereditary economic elite to exploit others, and to minimize the exposure of the elite to the demands of the public. Worldwide. Yes.


Or, basically: this, and the Republicans/conservatives are the primary agent in doing this.

Of course, by conservatives, I don't mean people who are actually conservative, I mean people who whine about Mexican immigrants all day. Which is something of an important distinction: true conservatives don't really exist. Not in voting numbers.
2018-02-27, 7:16 PM #7872
And I guess the point is, yes, there do exist conservatives with good apologia for their views. But most are completely intellectually vacuous. I'm really dismissive of it because there's nothing really there, they don't read history books, they don't study much, they don't really engage critically in anything they believe, or why they believe it. At the very least, I don't think any of them have an explanation for 20th century American history that actually can successfully contradict the narrative I painted above. Which is, I think, the key issue for me. The left actually has answers to these important questions, I can never find it on the right. Nothing salient and politically relevant today, at least.
2018-02-27, 7:19 PM #7873
And that’s why college educated people skew hard left.
2018-02-27, 7:36 PM #7874
Really that’s the thing that frustrates me about talking to conservatives. They have no intellectual tradition, so they don’t understand how to engage in subjects intellectually. Meanwhile, progressive opinions are entirely intellectual, and we have no sentimentality. It’s a very bad situation for everybody because progressives and conservatives can’t even talk about their differences, we have no language to even define what our shared goals should be. The polarization will only get worse and worse.

Maybe socialists need to market themselves better. “Hey, remember how much you liked Star Trek as a kid? They were socialists. Join us in the socialist party where it is the 27th century and everything is space robots”.
2018-02-27, 7:58 PM #7875
Maybe what we need is to find a way for it to be acceptable for conservatives to be socialist.
2018-02-27, 8:05 PM #7876
And I think the propaganda makers know this. If conservatives ever find out that socialism benefits them, their corporate puppet masters will be **** out of luck.

This is why almost every single day there is 9 hours solid ranting on AM radio about socialists who don't even exist.
2018-02-27, 8:13 PM #7877
I mean I know this sounds condescending (if you're listening Wookie), but could it be that maybe we're not all deranged, evil, radicals?

Jon`C says that conservatives and progressives don't have shared goals. To me, that's a big huge red flag that the two sides are being intentionally divided by the powers that be. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are just that many intellectual differences between people who simply happen to live in rural or urban regions.
2018-02-27, 8:18 PM #7878
Although when I think when it comes down to it, at the end of the line it's always this: "socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy".

I think this would be worth addressing. Can we point to documented cases in which economic redistribution hurt (or helped) the economy?

I can see conservatives getting upset if they witness a business they utilize being forced to close / raise prices because of new taxes or regulation. I can also see them being upset if they take home less pay. Would this happen much in practice?
2018-02-27, 8:59 PM #7879
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Maybe what we need is to find a way for it to be acceptable for conservatives to be socialist.
That would be nice. Maybe when they realize that government authority isn’t the only kind of authority they should be skeptical about.

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Although when I think when it comes down to it, at the end of the line it's always this: "socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy".

I think this would be worth addressing. Can we point to documented cases in which economic redistribution hurt (or helped) the economy?

I can see conservatives getting upset if they witness a business they utilize being forced to close / raise prices because of new taxes or regulation. I can also see them being upset if they take home less pay. Would this happen much in practice?


Canada’s done a few GMI experiments. Not the same thing as socialism, but it does make the labor market less compulsory. Data from the most recent experiment shows no reduction in male employment, and a small reduction in female employment (from women with small children choosing to stay out of the workplace for longer - hardly the worst thing in the world). The program hasn’t been running long enough to say anything about health outcomes from reduced stress or longitudinal economic changes (from business starts, frictional unemployment, etc.). It does however very conclusively say that, no, people are not “just lazy”.

Rich conservatives would definitely need to work harder and would get paid less under socialism. Because rich people who are parasite rentiers who collect passive incomes without working or earning their money wouldn’t be able to do that anymore, and I’m sure at least some of those parasites lean right. Working people would be universally ahead.

Edit: And yes, even with just GMI some companies would go out of business. Because they are **** companies run by stupid *******s, and nobody would work for them if working wasn’t a matter of life and death. Fortunately the employees would have the time and stability to start a business to replace the crap one, so you won’t even miss it. Wow. Imagine living in a world where competent management is actually a competitive advantage.
2018-02-27, 9:54 PM #7880
Beyond the low-information problem, another factor behind the “just lazy / human nature” belief is a wild overestimate of how efficient the private sector is. Seeing reality drives people to the left too, depending on how receptive they are to what they see.

For example, a business makes and sells a real thing. A patent lawyer tries to sue them, claiming they infringe on some patents he owns (he does this as a profession, for lack of more productive work). Then the business that makes things is forced to hire their own patent lawyer to defend against the claims. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, but in the end the company which is doing something is forced to lavish riches upon two people who ultimately do nothing.

You can try to pin this on government regulation, like say there shouldn’t be patents or state-granted monopolies, or say the regulations should be better, but it doesn’t really matter. It’s an extortion racket, as ancient as any other form of economic parasitism, and they always find a way.

Anyway, the private sector is overflowing in wasted lives. Legal, a problem that begets itself. Finance, whole generations of our best and brightest minds wasted on nothing that really matters, nothing that anybody will ever remember. Countless human capital ruined by incompetent and abusive managers, and wasting countless more people on HR, a job that only exists to protect abusive managers from the people they’ve abused. And the few actual productive people left, the few people who actually work for a living, are hammered in the head by meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting to report their progress to people who professionally listen to progress reports.

You express skepticism that the world doesn’t need workers? I’ve lived it. I’ve seen it. The world doesn’t ****ing need workers. People are doing **** all. Just let them stay home and masturbate all day, I don’t care. I’ve already been paying for them to do nothing, just let them do it at home. Hopefully given the chance they’ll find something to do that matters.
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