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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2019-02-22, 6:04 PM #13561
Finally, Kaczynski's rants about "oversocialization" are pretty apt in an extremist way, although (per Wikipedia) the concept goes back to Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents.

I mean, if you really take this guy's stuff too seriously, it's less about technology than overthrowing all of industrial civilization (edit: although don't quote me on that, since it's been a while since I've read the manifesto). Of course in a lot of ways it's also less about philosophy and more about how Kaczynski basically snapped when somebody cut down his favorite tree.
2019-02-22, 6:13 PM #13562
I take back some of what I wrote. I just browsed a few pages of Kaczynski's (newer, 2014) book, and it basically reads like a well-edited academic work rather than a rant. Interesting.
2019-02-22, 6:21 PM #13563
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Of course in a lot of ways it's also less about philosophy and more about how Kaczynski basically snapped when somebody cut down his favorite tree.


More precisely:

[quote=Ted Kaczynski]The best place, to me, was the largest remnant of this plateau that dates from the tertiary age. It's kind of rolling country, not flat, and when you get to the edge of it you find these ravines that cut very steeply in to cliff-like drop-offs and there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days hike from my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of 1983. That summer there were too many people around my cabin so I decided I needed some peace. I went back to the plateau and when I got there I found they had put a road right through the middle of it [His voice trails off; he pauses, then continues] You just can't imagine how upset I was. It was from that point on I decided that, rather than trying to acquire further wilderness skills, I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge. That wasn't the first time I ever did any monkeywrenching, but at that point, that sort of thing became a priority for me... I made a conscious effort to read things that were relevant to social issues, specifically the technological problem. For one thing, my concern was to understand how societies change, and for that purpose I read anthropology, history, a little bit of sociology and psychology, but mostly anthropology and history. [/quote]

https://web.archive.org/web/20090318135703/http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/tedk.htm
2019-02-22, 6:54 PM #13564
“I am angry about how capitalism uses technology, but not capable of speaking in those terms because I think socialists are ***gots”
2019-02-22, 7:20 PM #13565
The radical right is pernicious because everybody is a little bit conservative about something. That’s why it’s so important to consider opinions in their totality; a belief’s reasons and proposed answers are at least as important as the what.

Ted Kaczynski has a great point about the alienating effects of technology and industrialization. His reasons are selfish and his proposed answer is to visit death upon people he considers leftist. Lucid? Maybe to like minded anarchists and sympathetic liberals who would rather blame the inventor than the person who exploits the invention.
2019-02-23, 12:16 AM #13566
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/matteo-salvini-russia-italy/

Proof that the left is so destructive, Putin is funding the far-right worldwide to stop them from coming to his country.
2019-02-23, 12:22 AM #13567
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Well, if technologists like Bill Joy took it seriously enough to quote Industrial Society and Its Future, I can't really fault you for taking it seriously as well. Actually, I don't remember exactly how coherent the essay was, but if memory serves it came across as something you'd find on Usenet: clearly written by a brilliant mind and full of subtle points, mixed together with several axes to grind and other bizarre obsessions. And it's that kind of obsessiveness that becomes more disturbing given that he followed through with acts of violence.


I tend to filter out crazy stuff when I read. Any human being, no matter how bright, believes good things and not so good things. Clearly Kaczynski was wrong about quite a bit, too.

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Also: I wouldn't exactly say we're in an "age" of everyone "jerking themselves over technology". Really, far from it: it's not really accurate to call it an age, unless you want such an age to go back at least a couple centuries. Also, it's certainly not everyone--look at all the skepticism about technology, especially related to government and corporate surveillance.

On the other hand, we certainly haven't seen too much push back against rampant consumerism, which in my mind is sort of getting conflated here with technology. Steve Jobs came up in this thread already, and I'd say he ushered in the 21st century as another manifestation of this consumerism. Of course people could have chosen to listen to Fight Club instead of Apple, but then again why not spend the extra $400 on that new phone when it buys you all kind of social status?


Fair enough, it's wrong to call it an age. But, you know, alot of people also think Elon Musk has answers for global crises. Such people who can't see through grifters are a hindrance to real efforts.

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I take back some of what I wrote. I just browsed a few pages of Kaczynski's (newer, 2014) book, and it basically reads like a well-edited academic work rather than a rant. Interesting.


It's always a bit unnerving when that happens. Whenever anyone who thinks or acts radically different does so on a seemingly good basis.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
The radical right is pernicious because everybody is a little bit conservative about something. That’s why it’s so important to consider opinions in their totality; a belief’s reasons and proposed answers are at least as important as the what.

Ted Kaczynski has a great point about the alienating effects of technology and industrialization. His reasons are selfish and his proposed answer is to visit death upon people he considers leftist. Lucid? Maybe to like minded anarchists and sympathetic liberals who would rather blame the inventor than the person who exploits the invention.


Are you suggesting we can't separate ideas and take what we like and leave the rest behind?
2019-02-23, 12:25 AM #13568
We are gonna have to cope with the fact that Putin is actively promoting fascism worldwide, and that social media + concentrated wealth create easy propaganda faucets to feed people far-right talking points.
2019-02-23, 12:34 AM #13569
Originally posted by Reid:
Are you suggesting we can't separate ideas and take what we like and leave the rest behind?
No, I’m suggesting it’s epistemologically problematic to quote from an insane mans diatribe and say “...but this part is lucid”, just because it reinforces your priors. It’s not a lucid critique. It is an insane critique that happens to point out things that you agree are bad.
2019-02-23, 12:38 AM #13570
Alrighty
2019-02-23, 12:46 AM #13571
I bet Hitler ****in hated to stub his toe. He probably could have written an amazing rant explaining how much stubbing your toe hurts. That rant would probably also call toe-stubbing a conspiracy by the Jewish media to humiliate him, though. In fact, I’d wager that if Hitler did write a rant about stubbing his toes, it wouldn’t really be about toes at all, it would just be an excuse to blame Jewish people for even more wildly improbable misfortunes.

I’m not sure where I’m going with this.
2019-02-23, 12:59 AM #13572
Haha, I just knew that Elon Musk was on the tip of Reid's tongue.
2019-02-23, 8:30 AM #13573
Originally posted by Jon`C:
insert torturous theory about how Kaczynski was really left-wing here


I don't think it's necessary to associate the insane with the left. Associating the left with the insane however...

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Maybe to like minded anarchists and sympathetic liberals who would rather blame the inventor than the person who exploits the invention.


This kind of reminded me about this open letter dozens of Microsoft employees signed recently. I think they're misguided but I see where they're coming from.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2019-02-24, 12:05 AM #13574
"Without humans to cause accidents, 90% of risk is removed. Insurers are scrambling to prepare."

Edit: wtf, that article has very little to do with that headline. Sorry for the clickbait.
2019-02-24, 8:15 AM #13575
Who will employ all those actuaries..??
2019-02-25, 8:13 AM #13576
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I have a lot of questions about these shoes, and the answers are not immediately forthcoming.

There’s no manual override for tying them. The article said as much, without the phone app they are useless as shoes.

Is there a manual override for untying them??

Is the tightening controlled by software, or is there some kind of mechanical interlock? What prevents the shoe from being tightened too much when the normal mechanism is damaged or fails in some way? Is there anything stopping a malfunctioning shoe from applying so much force that it hurts your foot? Can it constrain your foot for a long enough duration that it affects circulation? Does it fail to an on state, or an off state?

What safety measures have been taken to protect the wearer from being incinerated if their battery gets damaged? Does this include damage due to heat, cold, chemical exposure? What measures have been taken to prevent battery degradation from walking on hot pavement, or undervolting from walking in sub zero? I’m gonna assume Nike knows feet flex, so they probably designed the batteries to stop them from being crushed during normal use.

What security measures have been taken to prevent muggers and rapists from unlacing your ****in shoes while you run away? Trick question, ****in nothing. Using an android app is generally a bad thing for Nike to have done. Why couldn’t it at least have been a button? I guess google and Nike just really need to mine that critical shoe tying data.

Edit: Can they run netbsd

fake Edit: CAN I MINE BITCOIN ON THEM


I like how you assume that they won't use the crappiest possible motors that are capable only of barely tightening the shoes about fifty times as they gradually revert the shoe to an ordinary slip on.
2019-02-25, 10:09 AM #13577
https://mobile.twitter.com/leftistanalysis/status/1099556027404566529

lol
2019-02-25, 3:03 PM #13578
Speaking of Michael Porter:

2019-02-26, 1:16 PM #13579
So we should mention at some point that there was a real and confirmed case of voter fraud in the U.S., and it was by an NC Republican. The party of honest, hardworking values..?
2019-02-26, 2:50 PM #13580
What do you people think about Bernie Sanders running for President again
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2019-02-26, 3:03 PM #13581
What do you mean "you people"
Originally posted by Krokodile:
you people
2019-02-26, 3:04 PM #13582
Originally posted by Krokodile:
What do you people think about Bernie Sanders running for President again


I think it's funny how the US liberal media is once again, as predicted, discounting the early front-runner like a nobody.
2019-02-26, 3:05 PM #13583
How DARE this insane fringe lunatic expect ME, BILLIONAIRE GOD-KING OF THE UNIVERSE, the One Who Has Been Rightfully Bequeathed, to contribute back to my nation or world!!!!
2019-02-26, 3:10 PM #13584
Expecting Walmart to help pay for the roads they use as warehouses or the welfare that keeps their employees alive is INSANE. It's ****ing INSANE and I will ****ing CUT YOU if you suggest different. It is LITERALLY the holocaust. Absolutely ****ing insane. I will gas a million jews before I allow this insane, unhinged, violent lunatic be elected.
2019-02-26, 3:10 PM #13585
Anyway, Kroko. I hope that answers your question.
2019-02-26, 3:20 PM #13586
jon did you think kroko meant 'you corporations' because of the, y'know, newspeak
2019-02-26, 3:22 PM #13587
Originally posted by saberopus:
jon did you think kroko meant 'you corporations' because of the, y'know, newspeak


probably not, he's from a country that still considers real people to be people.
2019-02-26, 9:29 PM #13588
I'm guessing Walmart does pay for all of the roads on their property (arguing about whatever tax incentives they've received aside) but yeah, it is pretty insane to expect for them to pay for welfare. If the people want Walmart to inflate the wages of their employees, shouldn't they vote to limit or eliminate the welfare given to their employees?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2019-02-26, 9:54 PM #13589
Originally posted by Wookie06:
I'm guessing Walmart does pay for all of the roads on their property (arguing about whatever tax incentives they've received aside)
I'm not talking about the roads on their property, I'm talking about public roads and highways. The interstate and state highways and ****. Walmart's operational effectiveness has always come from their just-in-time delivery model, which (usually described in more flowery language) just moves Walmart's inventory from warehouses it would normally have to pay to build and maintain, to the interstate system which people who actually pay tax pay for. They're a parasite.

Quote:
but yeah, it is pretty insane to expect for them to pay for welfare. If the people want Walmart to inflate the wages of their employees, shouldn't they vote to limit or eliminate the welfare given to their employees?
Well, America uses market pricing for labor, so this is one way to do it. If Walmart's workers can't afford to work at Walmart anymore, in the long term they will exit the labor market. Then, as the labor supply decreases, Walmart will need to offer more and more money in order to compete against other employers for those workers. By this process, the wage will eventually reach a new clearing point above the cost of living.

Of course, by "exit the labor market" I mean starve to death, so really this is all predicated upon America still existing after millions of armed, starving Americans realize they've got nothing to lose anymore. But yeah, in theory what you said will work.
2019-02-26, 10:04 PM #13590
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I'm not talking about the roads on their property, I'm talking about public roads and highways.


Yeah, I know.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Well, America uses market pricing for labor, so this is one way to do it. If Walmart's workers can't afford to work at Walmart anymore, in the long term they will exit the labor market. Then, as the labor supply decreases, Walmart will need to offer more and more money in order to compete against other employers for those workers. By this process, the wage will eventually reach a new clearing point above the cost of living.

Of course, by "exit the labor market" I mean starve to death, so really this is all predicated upon America still existing after millions of armed, starving Americans realize they've got nothing to lose anymore. But yeah, in theory what you said will work.


Of course it will work. In fact, cut off welfare to everyone. There's little reason to raise wages when the government is subsidizing 47% of the population.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2019-02-26, 10:06 PM #13591
While we're talking about retail operations again, shout out to my boy Costco. Not only do they have one of the strongest and consistent revenue growths among retailers, and the most optimistic shareholders (outperforming the S&P 500 by a wide margin), but their solution to the warehouse/inventory cost is much more creative than Walmart's (i.e. run warehouses instead of stores) and they disregarded Wall Street's incessant barking to become a successful and highly public user of efficiency wages.

I'm sure they aren't perfect, but notice how I'm also not calling them a parasite. In case you were under the impression that I just hate big companies.
2019-02-26, 10:08 PM #13592
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Yeah, I know.
I don't believe you.

Quote:
Of course it will work. In fact, cut off welfare to everyone. There's little reason to raise wages when the government is subsidizing 47% of the population.
The government should eliminate all labor regulations too. That way companies will be forced to compete on which can offer their employees the best conditions, not just the best pay.
2019-02-26, 10:09 PM #13593
Oh, can you make sure this all happens in winter though? Unusually cold one, please. No particular reason.
2019-02-26, 10:13 PM #13594
I mean, I'd laugh my ass off if any of this anarchocapitalist wet dream actually happened. Walmart's regular pay would plummet, but they'd have no shortage of money to spend on private police to make sure the workers weren't stealing food. Liberals would throw up their hands saying "why not just pay your workers more money so they don't have to steal??", because they don't understand market economies, and conservatives would be too busy workin' hard to get theirs because they don't understand capitalist ones.
2019-02-26, 10:14 PM #13595
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I don't believe you.


I don't care. It doesn't really matter though. They pay taxes so they're paying for roads.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
The government should eliminate all labor regulations too. That way companies will be forced to compete on which can offer their employees the best conditions, not just the best pay.


Obviously.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Oh, can you make sure this all happens in winter though? Unusually cold one, please. No particular reason.


For myself, yes. Why do you ask?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2019-02-26, 10:15 PM #13596
Originally posted by Wookie06:
For myself, yes. Why do you ask?


So ur ****in violent revolution doesn't spill over into Canada. Duh.
2019-02-26, 10:19 PM #13597
Well, as you said above, you'd be laughing your ass off so why worry?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2019-02-26, 10:21 PM #13598
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Well, as you said above, you'd be laughing your ass off so why worry?


I wouldn't be laughing my ass off if it spilled over into Canada.

Hopefully my government would have the good sense to deny the "legitimate" American government asylum.
2019-02-26, 10:21 PM #13599
Who am I kidding, they'd probably go to Israel or Saudi Arabia. Am I right?
2019-02-26, 10:26 PM #13600
Don't worry. We'll send our best and our brightest.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

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