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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-10-28, 10:52 AM #12601
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I’m not disputing the fact that there is antisemitism on the left (either the real one or the fake American one), but I still don’t understand how socially conservative black nationalists can be considered on “the left” just because they vote for the center-right party that’s less racist than the fascist one.

I guess this is just one of those mysteries for the ages.


Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 11:12 AM #12602
Originally posted by Eversor:
Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?
2018-10-28, 11:15 AM #12603
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Sounds like me.


Originally posted by Reid:


Don't feed the trolls.
2018-10-28, 11:18 AM #12604
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Don't feed the trolls.


Trolling requires creativity
2018-10-28, 11:23 AM #12605
Originally posted by Reid:
So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?


According to Judith Butler and other prominent people on the left they are. Jeremy Corbyn called them Hezbollah and Hamas "friends".

I know less about Hezbollah, but Hamas definitely models itself as a freedom fighting organization in the same vein as the ANC, and it tries to gain the sympathy of the international left by aligning itself self-consciously with the "anti-imperialist" agenda of the left, and casting itself as an organization devoted to popular resistance.

Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 11:25 AM #12606
It all goes without saying that these aren't representative views on the left. If you're going to talk about left-wing antisemitism, you're going to be talking about people who are exceptional in their irrationality.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 11:28 AM #12607
Originally posted by Eversor:
According to Judith Butler and other prominent people on the left they are. Jeremy Corbyn called them Hezbollah and Hamas "friends".

I know less about Hezbollah, but Hamas definitely models itself as a freedom fighting organization in the same vein as the ANC, and it tries to gain the sympathy of the international left by aligning itself self-consciously with the "anti-imperialist" agenda of the left, and casting itself as an organization devoted to popular resistance.

Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.


I guess Joncy and I tend to define left and right by ideological commitment rather than whomever forms an alliance.
2018-10-28, 11:36 AM #12608
Originally posted by Reid:
Trolling requires creativity


OK, then don't feed Wookie06
2018-10-28, 11:48 AM #12609
Hey, I can be creative! Anyway, if you couldn't tell that quote was the Pittsburgh guy. It was a self-deprecating joke. Jon can use the same quote and post "Sounds like Wookie06," then you'll appreciate it.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2018-10-28, 11:48 AM #12610
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
OK, then don't feed Wookie06


fair enough
2018-10-28, 11:53 AM #12611
Originally posted by Reid:
I guess Joncy and I tend to define left and right by ideological commitment rather than whomever forms an alliance.


Well, it is a matter of ideological commitment. There are people who identify as being on the left in western countries who are so deeply committed to anti-imperialism that they believe that anyone who combats western imperialism is in the right and deserves support. They see organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah (and others) as freedom fighters who are standing up against the bullies of international politics. There's a vision of global order undergirding that form of politics. It's deeply ideological.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:06 PM #12612
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Hey, I can be creative! Anyway, if you couldn't tell that quote was the Pittsburgh guy. It was a self-deprecating joke. Jon can use the same quote and post "Sounds like Wookie06," then you'll appreciate it.


Oh, sorry then. I guess I automatically assumed you had a chip on your shoulder after all the abuse you've sustained in this thread, so that such a self-deprecating remark could only have been meant sarcastically.
2018-10-28, 12:09 PM #12613
And to be (more) fair to wookie, jon`c did basically say that he checks multiple boxes for being a potential terrorist (so I get the joke now).
2018-10-28, 12:11 PM #12614
Originally posted by Eversor:
Well, it is a matter of ideological commitment. There are people who identify as being on the left in western countries who are so deeply committed to anti-imperialism that they believe that anyone who combats western imperialism is in the right and deserves support. They see organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah (and others) as freedom fighters who are standing up against the bullies of international politics. There's a vision of global order undergirding that form of politics. It's deeply ideological.


Yeah but being on the left isn't just anti Western imperialism. That's only one thread of similarity.

I think you're stretching the umbrella of what counts as left to make a point, some kind of "both sides" meme. Like I don't like the alliances you've pointed out, but I disagree that the mentioned groups are actually left.
2018-10-28, 12:13 PM #12615
Originally posted by Eversor:
Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?
2018-10-28, 12:17 PM #12616
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?


This example came up in my mind, too. Half of the world is Stalinist!
2018-10-28, 12:22 PM #12617
Originally posted by Reid:
This example came up in my mind, too. Half of the world is Stalinist!


Is guilt by association transitive?
2018-10-28, 12:25 PM #12618
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?


No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:26 PM #12619
Originally posted by Reid:
Yeah but being on the left isn't just anti Western imperialism. That's only one thread of similarity.

I think you're stretching the umbrella of what counts as left to make a point, some kind of "both sides" meme. Like I don't like the alliances you've pointed out, but I disagree that the mentioned groups are actually left.


I swear, you’d respect me so much more if you knew how much patience was required to talk to you about nearly anything.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:27 PM #12620
Originally posted by Eversor:
No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.


If you say so. I certainly don't feel any ideological alliance with middle eastern terrorists, regardless of any indiscretions of the British leader of a borgie party.
2018-10-28, 12:27 PM #12621
In what world are Jeremy Corbyn and Judith Butler not leftists?
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:27 PM #12622
Originally posted by Eversor:
No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.


Yes they did, they agreed on anti-fascism, so they're practically the same.
2018-10-28, 12:30 PM #12623
Originally posted by Eversor:
In what world are Jeremy Corbyn and Judith Butler not leftists?


I didn't say they weren't. I said what they do is irrelevant. Black nationalism, hamas, and hezbollah are not left wing organizations. As a leftist I don't have to own their actions just because they've befriended some useful idiots.
2018-10-28, 12:30 PM #12624
Originally posted by Eversor:
I swear, you’d respect me so much more if you knew how much patience was required to talk to you about nearly anything.


I just disagree with you on this, sorry man.
2018-10-28, 12:35 PM #12625
Originally posted by Jon`C:
If you say so. I certainly don't feel any ideological alliance with middle eastern terrorists, regardless of any indiscretions of the British leader of a borgie party.


I never said that in order to be on the left one must believe these ideas. I said that there are some on the left who believe them. You can be a leftist and disagree with them. I wouldn’t expect you to find them convincing. They’re bad ideas, and connected with certain anti-Semitic ideas regarding Israel on the left.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:36 PM #12626
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I didn't say they weren't. I said what they do is irrelevant. Black nationalism, hamas, and hezbollah are not left wing organizations. As a leftist I don't have to own their actions just because they've befriended some useful idiots.


That didn’t apply to you.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:38 PM #12627
For what it’s worth i find this a very clarifying conversation. I appreciate much better now how totally tribalistic and reflexively unwilling to address the left’s flaws you are.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:43 PM #12628
Originally posted by Eversor:
For what it’s worth i find this a very clarifying conversation. I appreciate much better now how totally tribalistic and reflexively unwilling to address the left’s flaws you are.


It's pretty obvious you're just here to score points against people and have no serious commitment to the argument. This is some Wookie tier ****.
2018-10-28, 12:43 PM #12629
Originally posted by Reid:
Yes they did, they agreed on anti-fascism, so they're practically the same.


The ideological origins of this form of anti-imperialism ideology are in the New Left. See, for instance, the weather underground justifying its use of violence based on solidarity with anti-colonial freedom fighters throughout the globe. The idea was that those organizations have a legitimate right to use force against imperialist powers, and therefore so did the weather underground, in order to achieve the exact same end that the anti-colonial guerilla groups sought (namely, an end to imperial rule).
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:44 PM #12630
Originally posted by Reid:
It's pretty obvious you're just here to score points against people and have no serious commitment to the argument. This is some Wookie tier ****.


I know you wish that were true.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 12:51 PM #12631
You shouldn't have to strongarm people into admitting they don't like antisemitism or any commitment to Hamas or Hezbollah. I obviously recognize the left has antisemites. That's not a new fact. The entire discussion has been centered around you wanting to tie the left to the racism of NOI, Hamas and Hezbollah by noting one ideological commitment vs. a large array.

Ask people on the left if they prefer the commitments of YPG or Hamas. The answer is clear.

The reason anyone is reluctant to reply is you're arguing from a bad place and acting like a ****head while doing it, and this motivation is paper thin. You need to stop doing it.
2018-10-28, 12:53 PM #12632
Eversor, let me see if I can circle back to the beginning of this discussion now.

You argued that Nation of Islam, a socially conservative black nationalism organization, is owned by the left because they've found common cause with certain American left-wing organizations (particularly the Democratic Party). However, being socially conservative and black nationalist, clearly they cannot be ideological allies, just allies of momentary convenience (defeating rich white men). In this case, the common non-ideological cause is enough for you to consider Nation of Islam left-wing.

But during WW2, the United States and the Soviet Union found common cause. Again, not ideological. Again, of momentary convenience (to defeat the Nazis). But in this case, the fact that the alliance wasn't ideological means you don't consider the United States to be communist.



Your argument is not logical.
2018-10-28, 1:03 PM #12633
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Eversor, let me see if I can circle back to the beginning of this discussion now.

You argued that Nation of Islam, a socially conservative black nationalism organization, is owned by the left because they've found common cause with certain American left-wing organizations (particularly the Democratic Party). However, being socially conservative and black nationalist, clearly they cannot be ideological allies, just allies of momentary convenience (defeating rich white men). In this case, the common non-ideological cause is enough for you to consider Nation of Islam left-wing.

But during WW2, the United States and the Soviet Union found common cause. Again, not ideological. Again, of momentary convenience (to defeat the Nazis). But in this case, the fact that the alliance wasn't ideological means you don't consider the United States to be communist.



Your argument is not logical.


Jesus. My contention is not that Hamas, Hezbollah or NOI are left-wing as such. My contention is that some left-wingers, based on their ideological commitments, support these organizations see themselves as having an ideological kinship. Please stop strawmaning me.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 1:05 PM #12634
Originally posted by Eversor:
Or see Louis Farrakhan, who just recently called Jews termites and has consistently said made anti-Semitic remarks as of late. There’s no shortage of anti-semitism on the left.


Except you said their leader is on the left....
2018-10-28, 1:07 PM #12635
Originally posted by Eversor:
Jesus. My contention is not that Hamas, Hezbollah or NOI are left-wing as such. My contention is that some left-wingers, based on their ideological commitments, support these organizations see themselves as having an ideological kinship. Please stop strawmaning me.


This is how the conversation went:

Originally posted by Eversor:
Or see Louis Farrakhan, who just recently called Jews termites and has consistently said made anti-Semitic remarks as of late.


Originally posted by Reid:
Can we really call the Nation of Islam left wing?


Originally posted by Eversor:
Yes.
2018-10-28, 1:09 PM #12636
Originally posted by Reid:
You shouldn't have to strongarm people into admitting they don't like antisemitism or any commitment to Hamas or Hezbollah. I obviously recognize the left has antisemites. That's not a new fact. The entire discussion has been centered around you wanting to tie the left to the racism of NOI, Hamas and Hezbollah by noting one ideological commitment vs. a large array.


I have repeatedly... REPEATEDLY! stated that I am talking about radical views on the left that, while prevalent, are not necessarily representative. I have repeatedly stated exactly what you now claim I am ignoring: that I am talking about certain parts of the left who hold particularly troubling views, and I am only talking about those.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 1:12 PM #12637
Originally posted by Reid:
This is how the conversation went:


Yeah dip****, then I clarified my view:

Originally posted by Reid:
So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?


Originally posted by Eversor:
Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 1:13 PM #12638
So even if we let this go and don't hold you to your original (expressly stated) claim that Nation of Islam is on the left, you're still sticking with it as an example of antisemitism on the left because they have common cause with some left-wing groups. And now we're back to guilt by association.

I'm not arguing there isn't antisemitism on the left, but this is a good point very badly argued.
2018-10-28, 1:13 PM #12639
Believe it or not I actually adjusted my view about NOI in light of our conversation! Imagine that!
former entrepreneur
2018-10-28, 1:15 PM #12640
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yeah dip****, then I clarified my view:


Sorry, it's just hard to follow your train of thought, no need to drop insults.

You're always welcome to PM me if you have a personal issue over making these public displays.
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