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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-07-31, 12:43 PM #10481
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Also in the United States the 'left' is mostly ill-defined because it doesn't really exist all that much.


Or more accurately, they don't have political representation (so instead they mostly spend their time talking about bizarre things on social media).
2018-07-31, 12:43 PM #10482
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Well, in a democracy, the 'left' is really not a well-defined group of people. (Also in the United States the 'left' is mostly ill-defined because it doesn't really exist all that much.)


I suppose I'm referring to the college students people complain about, or some of the stuff you see on social media. They exist. I wouldn't attempt to quantify but they're there.
2018-07-31, 12:46 PM #10483
Hooray for Twitter outrage!
2018-07-31, 1:04 PM #10484
Originally posted by Reid:
I do think responded to a loaded question with another is destructive to the discourse. If a person values the discourse, it's in their court to try and maintain the discourse at the highest level possible. If the other person continues to be unfair, then at a certain point, sure, you're no longer obligated. But, if you spring into bad discourse at the first sight of poor form from the other person, I think you're actively working against the discourse.

It's literally like policing children. It's not really Bobby's fault for starting the fight, if Timmy's response was to spit on him. You both acted like *******s so you're both in the wrong. It works the same here.


But I don't think it is bad for discourse -- although really, it might be more relevant here about conversation. I mean, let's say someone says "why do you want to stop two people who love each other from getting married?" If you disagree with that framing of the issue, it's not intrinsically bad to respond with Shapiro's question. It depends on context. As a rhetorical move, the purpose of posing the question is to point out that the other person is trying to frame the discussion with their question, and there are alternative ways to frame it. What would be bad would be if you knew the person you were talking to would get really, really angry when they heard the response, and you deliberately posed your point in an acerbic way in order to get that response out of them. In one case, it starts a conversation -- in the other, it ends one.

Originally posted by Reid:
I think the conclusion I'm getting from this is that Ben Shapiro simply doesn't care about discourse; he's out to "own the libs". If so, that's fine, but I think it undermines many of his complaints about college campus discourse.


I don't know. I think it's just self-aware partisanship. I don't think Shapiro here is thinking in zero-sum terms, where it doesn't matter how it happens, as long as liberals lose, conservatives win. That's the bad, unprincipled kind of "owning the libs". I think he's trying to promote an alternative point of view here, however thinly argued and unconvincing it might be.
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 1:08 PM #10485
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't know. I think it's just self-aware partisanship. I don't think Shapiro here is thinking in zero-sum terms, where it doesn't matter how it happens, as long as liberals lose, conservatives win. That's the bad, unprincipled kind of "owning the libs". I think he's trying to promote an alternative point of view here, however thinly argued and unconvincing it might be.


Two possible interpretations:

  1. Conservatives have lower standards for what constitutes discourse than liberals, or
  2. the goals of conservatives are foreign enough to liberals that liberals have a hard time deciphering the role of things conservatives say in their discussions.


(Or maybe a combination of both)
2018-07-31, 1:16 PM #10486
our goal as conservatives is to preserve the white race idk what these snowflakes cant geet about that
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2018-07-31, 1:22 PM #10487
conservatives might have those flavors of narrow goals, but at the end of the day, they can't stop my tweeting
2018-07-31, 1:24 PM #10488
we must secure the existence of our tweets and a future for our blue twitter followers
2018-07-31, 1:24 PM #10489
Originally posted by Eversor:
But I don't think it is bad for discourse -- although really, it might be more relevant here about conversation. I mean, let's say someone says "why do you want to stop two people who love each other from getting married?" If you disagree with that framing of the issue, it's not intrinsically bad to respond with Shapiro's question. It depends on context. As a rhetorical move, the purpose of posing the question is to point out that the other person is trying to frame the discussion with their question, and there are alternative ways to frame it. What would be bad would be if you knew the person you were talking to would get really, really angry when they heard the response, and you deliberately posed your point in an acerbic way in order to get that response out of them. In one case, it starts a conversation -- in the other, it ends one.


I'm not personally seeing how that is a rhetorical move. It changes the subject and doesn't seem to call out the problem with the question at all.

I think a more appropriate response would be something like "my argument is not about what lovers do, I'm concerned about marriage and the role it has in childrearing". That seems to do a better job of addressing the point and changing the subject without being aggressive and unhelpful.

Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't know. I think it's just self-aware partisanship. I don't think Shapiro here is thinking in zero-sum terms, where it doesn't matter how it happens, as long as liberals lose, conservatives win. That's the bad, unprincipled kind of "owning the libs". I think he's trying to promote an alternative point of view here, however thinly argued and unconvincing it might be.


An alternative point of view to what? The video is about how to discourse with the left, the discussion of gay marriage was used rhetorically.
2018-07-31, 1:26 PM #10490
Originally posted by Reid:
Notice how the very mention that the right should maintain better discourse was met with massive disdain.

It's true that the left has a big collective of people who participate in poor discourse. There's also a big group of left or center-left liberals who I think are probably the most discourse-intensive people in the country.


Not really unique to the right, though. Take this, for example, from an article in the Atlantic written after a speech Obama gave two weeks ago in South Africa:

Quote:
Obama offered his trademark: a hopeful series of solutions. He encouraged “an inclusive market-based system,” criticizing both “unregulated, unbridled, unethical capitalism,” and socialism. He emphasized the role of youth, and the need for free speech and open democracies. He also chided opponents of white-nationalist regimes across the world. Taking familiar jabs at identity politics, the former president said that liberals can’t beat their opponents if they dismiss them out of concern that “because they’re white, or because they’re male, that somehow there’s no way they can understand what I’m feeling—that somehow they lack standing to speak on certain matters.”


He goes on to say:

Quote:
Like many who make a living writing about political correctness, Obama presented a bit of a straw man: Popular movements against white-male-dominated power and nationalism don’t commonly bar white men from speaking. In South Africa and in the United States, many prominent voices in racially progressive circles have been, and are, white men. By invoking this argument, Obama again cedes ground to Trump, who has built his base on a foundation of allegedly marginalized white men, and who promises a return to a white-male-dominated order.

Those who advocate about the dangers of “political correctness”—in places as far apart as Berkeley, California; the University of Cape Town; and the University of Oxford—recommend a too-convenient path to equality for minorities: Be respectful to white men, and they will take their feet off your necks. This prescription does well in a hypothetical world where control over cultural institutions is indeed equitable—or perhaps even tilted toward global minorities. That’s a world that many moderate and conservative commentators who decry identity politics think is nigh. It’s a vision of the world that helps fuel Trumpism, and that most white Americans believe already exists. It’s also one in which discrimination by people of color against whites is just as prevalent as bigotry from white men. In perhaps the most extreme version of this false narrative, white-nationalist propaganda has presented South Africa as a racist caricature of creeping black dominion over hapless white citizens, uncomfortable context for Obama’s remarks.


The criticisms laid against Obama here seem like a straw man to me. I think Obama was criticizing arguments that go like this:

1. being party of an identity group is defined by shared, common "lived experiences" that all members of an identity group ubiquitously share
2. if you don't belong to an identity group, you don't have access to its lived experiences, and therefore you are not in a position to opine on issues that relate to identity groups that are not your own
3. since people can only speak to their own lived experiences, more privileged people, such as white males, who suffer less discrimination, are not entitled to have opinions on certain issues, and, in fact, it is impossible to make them understand the lived experiences of people of other identity groups

I think Obama's criticism of this line of argument, contained in the lines quoted from his speech, are effectively that, if these are the assumptions you bring to political discourse, there can't be productive conversation between peoples of different identities, and therefore, this politics is inherently divisive, because it often involves making ad hominem attacks against people -- pointing out their race or their gender -- when you disagree with them, as the reason why they can't possibly be right -- as evidence that they don't have a right to their opinion. This is a very common refrain. You see it everywhere.

Anyway, I'm bringing this up just to say: people on the left, as much as the right, can go to extreme lengths to not understand those who criticize, and can go so far as to accuse them of being, effectively, apologists for white nationalists, even when their critic is the first African-American president of the United States. It's just a reflexive impulse to resist criticism -- and a very human one at that. It's not a feature of the left or the right's ideology or of left- or right-wing sociality.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/barack-obama-donald-trump-nationalism/565724/
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 1:37 PM #10491
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm not personally seeing how that is a rhetorical move. It changes the subject and doesn't seem to call out the problem with the question at all.

I think a more appropriate response would be something like "my argument is not about what lovers do, I'm concerned about marriage and the role it has in childrearing". That seems to do a better job of addressing the point and changing the subject without being aggressive and unhelpful.


I don't know how else to explain this without repeating myself all over again. The question may be pointed, but that doesn't mean that's necessarily it's mean-spirited, dismissive, or that it doesn't promote conversation. It could actually be the entry point into the sort of discussion that Shapiro is suggesting that conservatives try to have with liberals: one where liberals don't set the terms of the debate, but conservative first principles are taken into account. Whether the question is "bad for discourse" depends on the context: whether when Shapiro poses that question, he thinks it will lead to a productive conversation, or whether he thinks it's going to make his interlocutor storm out in a huff.

Originally posted by Reid:
An alternative point of view to what? The video is about how to discourse with the left, the discussion of gay marriage was used rhetorically.


That when it comes to same sex-marriage, we should consider the broader consequences that it has on society as a whole (specifically, that it might be corrosive to the family as an institution that is the backbone of our society), and therefore we should weigh that more heavily than the effect it has on individuals.
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 2:40 PM #10492
Originally posted by Eversor:
Shapiro is suggesting that conservatives try to have with liberals: one where liberals don't set the terms of the debate, but conservative first principles are taken into account.


The government can’t be trusted to regulate who should and should not be allowed to marry or raise children.
2018-07-31, 2:50 PM #10493
Most conservatives have probably never been introspective enough to fully appreciate how incompatible the level of opportunism present in their politics is with having some kind of open, public discussion about whatever principles they have in private (or even claim to have in public). But I sure think they can smell that it wouldn't be in their favor to speak their mind openly (and when some of them do, it sure aint pretty). I think that's why they always go on the offensive, because it lets them off the hook.

On the other hand, the left can keep searching for some kind of mythical, good-faith conservative to debate, but remember that they're still mostly a part of your imagination (and most real conservatives are probably laughing at you for even trying, or they may yell at you for being a pointy headed intellectual).
2018-07-31, 2:50 PM #10494
The problem with letting conservatives set the terms of debate is that they have no actual principles. They just want the **** they want. They have no intellectual tradition and offer nothing in any discussion but rambling, inconsistent, post hoc rationalizations that are designed foremost to make them not obviously monstrous.

I like talking to libertarians because you actually can discuss social issues in terms they’ll understand. They believe government regulation is bad and, well, they can at least understand that gay marriage prohibition is a regulation too. Social conservatives pretend they care about government intervention to justify wanting guns and sibling marriage and whatever, but conveniently forget their small government principles when it comes to things like gay marriage and abortion.

What these people actually want is for their personal preferences to dictate how others behave. They want “gross” things to be illegal, and they want brown people in jail. They know it’s anti democratic, they don’t care. The only thing they can actually do in a conversation is “own libs” because they’re trash people. They believe for no reason that their preferences dictate universal absolute morality and see nothing wrong with imposing those views on everybody else. These are not reasonable people and you cannot reason with them.
2018-07-31, 2:56 PM #10495
Originally posted by Jon`C:
What these people actually want is for their personal preferences to dictate how others behave.


That's probably the most concise way of putting it. Sad.
2018-07-31, 2:58 PM #10496
I actually think it's funny to compare what Jon and I just wrote. My post just before his is basically an abstruse, non-specific, and sugarcoated way of saying what he did in slightly less polite terms. Heh
2018-07-31, 3:00 PM #10497
The only “reasonable” conservatives are the business right. Pure evil, but at least they’ve reasoned about why they want what they want.
2018-07-31, 3:02 PM #10498
Making for an unholy alliance between wannabe-Nazi edgelords and billionaires!
2018-07-31, 3:02 PM #10499
TL;DR:

Social right: Black people are scary, they shouldn’t be allowed to live where I live.

Business right: The healthy blacks should be exploited as slave labor. The sickly and elderly blacks should be rendered into candles and other saleable products.

Good luck making reasonable progress with either of these people. Maybe try citing a study?
2018-07-31, 3:05 PM #10500
About the only thing you can do with these guys is mess with them until they make the mistake of revealing what they really want to say.



What's more bizarre is that our political parties should be completely centered around these people.

I guess what's maddening to liberals is that the political discourse in this country is basically grounded in undemocratic beliefs that are costly to undo (for example).
2018-07-31, 3:13 PM #10501
A racially equal and democratic architecture for the USA is just another example of second system syndrome. Keep it simple / racist, folks! Make America run without bugs again! No more features! MAGA! Use Golang!
2018-07-31, 3:24 PM #10502
It seems like every time I check in to see what delusions are present in here I see a post from Jon`C about how conservatives have no principles. It's a lie of course and he seems completely obsessed with the premise. I once predicted that Obama would lose bigly but I misjudged voter turnout. I'm not going to predict Trump winning in 2020, who is not conservative btw, but I'm fully expecting it and looking forward to checking back in to see the discussion in this thread then.

Oh, yeah, and I think unless they (democratics) manage to kneecap all of 'em I'm guessing we're in for a Red Wave as well this year.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2018-07-31, 3:30 PM #10503
no true scotsman
2018-07-31, 3:35 PM #10504
Tell that to Jon.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2018-07-31, 3:35 PM #10505
If Trump isn't a conservative, then why does he enjoy the support of conservatives?
2018-07-31, 3:37 PM #10506
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
If Trump isn't a conservative, then why does he enjoy the support of conservatives?


The reason that the "real conseratives" give is that it's because he's willing to appoint bona fide conservative judges.
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 3:41 PM #10507
And there we go. I think it's safe to say I was correct when I characterized conservatives as opportunistic. And so are liberals. Well, unfortunately it's the state of our political system.

At any rate, Wookie, neither of us like Trump, and, not being much of a political partisan myself (believe it or not), I think the best thing we could do to improve the situation in our country is follow Jon`C's advice and get rid of first-past-the-post voting (which, he says, would have stopped Trump from winning the primary).

Of course, this probably means getting rid of the electoral college, and also decreasing the influence of conservative states, so I think we'd probably disagree on whether or not we ought to change anything at all. Which makes me think: conservatives are conservatives because they like the status quo, regardless of how 'democratic' it is.
2018-07-31, 3:42 PM #10508
There have been some indications in the past few years that Trump doesn't side with Republican orthodoxy on abortion, gun control and healthcare -- his "New York values," as Ted Cruz called it -- but it doesn't seem to be of any consequence that those are his inner convictions, because he doesn't govern on those convictions. Even if Trump has signaled a willingness to take a non-partisan, pragmatic approach on issues at times, he usually snaps back to Republican orthodoxy, presumably after he's pressured to.

Also, some republicans claim that they care about character, and so they suffer Trump ("the tweets"), claiming that he's the betrayal of everything that they stand for.
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 3:43 PM #10509
Trump isn’t a true conservative, he’s nothing like the unethical businessmen I usually vote for.
2018-07-31, 3:43 PM #10510
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
conservatives are conservatives because they like the status quo, regardless of how 'democratic' it is.


And how is that a principle worth defending? My understanding of the word 'principle' is that its truth should be independent of the person holding it. By definition, then, opportunistic tendencies can never be principles.
2018-07-31, 3:45 PM #10511
Originally posted by Eversor:
Also, some republicans claim that they care about character, and so they suffer Trump, knowing that he's the betrayal of what they stand for.


Isn't this just the problem with first-past-the-post voting, then? At least, so long as there exist systems where you aren't supposed to have to vote for people you don't agree with, and do so only for strategic reasons?
2018-07-31, 3:48 PM #10512
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Isn't this just the problem with First-past-the-post voting, then?


It's the problem with voting. No candidate or party perfectly represents you and every single thing you believe. Voting is a compromise.
former entrepreneur
2018-07-31, 3:59 PM #10513
Voting used to be a compromise. Now that facts don’t matter one candidate can be everything to everybody. Trump is the safe centrist New York liberal candidate who’s pro trans rights and will work with the dems if he can. Trump’s the hardline Republican president who will stack the Supreme Court and thumb his nose at the libtards. Trump’s the pro business candidate who will slash taxes. Trump’s the pro worker candidate who will punish and tax companies that outsource. Trump’s the white nationalist candidate who will throw brown people into rape camps. And if it doesn’t turn out, well, Trump’s not really Republican. He used to be a Democrat.

The best part is, they’re all right. Trump is the perfect conservative politician. They couldn’t have done better if they’d grown him in a vat.
2018-07-31, 3:59 PM #10514
Originally posted by Eversor:
It's the problem with voting. No candidate or party perfectly represents you and every single thing you believe. Voting is a compromise.


I seem to remember though a Eurosassian here talking about how strategic voting became no more effective than voting with your actual preferences, in his country.

Then, at least, Wookie wouldn't be able to simultaneously claim to have conservative principles while still (edit: rejecting) Trump, whereas so many other conservatives DO support Trump (perhaps even violating some of their principles in order to advance others, e.g., ensuring that Supreme Court nominations are conservative).

I guess what I'm wondering, is: can we set up a voting system where people are more accountable for the views they claim to have?
2018-07-31, 4:00 PM #10515
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The perfect Republican. They couldn’t have done better if they’d grown him in a vat.


Just so long as the vat isn't subject to a VAT
2018-07-31, 4:03 PM #10516
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Just so long as the vat isn't subject to a VAT


Well the US is the only country that doesn’t have one, and I’m not sure where they’d find one that’s made there, so
2018-07-31, 4:05 PM #10517
I actually had a very productive discussion about fascism with a conservative friend of mine, which ended up discussing conservatism more generally. The more I think about it, the more I hate American discourse on these topics. We use all of these words so poorly.

The discussion had to do with my belief that Trump is fascist. His initial belief was that you could have a left-wing fascism. Even said you could describe the Soviet Union as fascist. (Apparently, by the way, "red fascist" was a real term some people used, although its usage was pretty limited to Trotskyist left wingers). I said I didn't think left fascism was possible. Given that I've become interested in the French Revolution lately, I began thinking about many of the terms, why they're used poorly in America, and how to better describe fascism.

-- Long ramble about the French Revolution incoming --

I think left vs. right, apart from economics, is best understood by knowing more history about the French revolution. Basically, there was a financial crisis in France, and the Third Estate, comprising the vast majority of French citizens, wanted a larger say in the Estates General, which you can kind of think as an emergency congress the king could assemble to deal with issues in a complex time. Given the tumultuous times, and the unwillingness of the army to cooperate with the king, eventually the Estates General, under the pretense of bringing rights to the French citizenry, basically declared themselves the new government of France. The king kind of went with it because he had no one willing to defend him.

Okay, so you had basically a loose group of people in some new amorphous government over France. The Estates General became very cliquish, and at first you had the more liberal, pro-democratic guys collecting together in the Breton club, who were able to force through a bunch of their ideas by working together. Eventually, the less liberal forces started working together. And as we all famously know, the more liberal forces sat on the left side of the assembly room, and the more conservative forces on the right.

Left and right were defined in this context. Specifically, it had shockingly little to do with economics - left and right economics came later. Early on it had much more to do with hierarchies, privileges and so forth. The left was for destroying old privileges - nobility were granted all sorts of tax exemptions, they could buy political offices (by the time of the French Revolution something like 90% of public offices were purchased), and could collect taxes. They were the ones pushing for an absolutely mandatory, exemption-free tax system to end France's budget problems, and to limit the power of the nobility.

-- End of ramble --

So, what left and right I think most purely mean is about the movement's relationship to the hierarchy: left-leaning movements are anti-hierarchy, right-leaning movements are pro-hierarchy. This is why, historically, conservatism, reactionary and right-wing forces get along - conservatives want to preserve, so they're a natural ally of hierarchies. Reactionary forces want to move the clock back before a liberal movement, and restore hierarchies which used to exist.

Interestingly, fascism is the first mass reactionary movement in an age where monarchism had truly died. Before fascism, being reactionary meant you restored the monarchy, or fought to protect noble privileges. WW1 pretty much ended the age of monarchies and nobility, specifically it more monarchies than any other single event in history.

Okay, so how does that pertain to the Soviets and fascists? Well, pretty easily. The reason you can't have left fascists is, fascists have historically always worked with entrenched power. German conservatives, like factory owners, were terrified of communism. They supported the Nazis because they saw the Nazis as the primary way to preserve their own hierarchy. Whereas the reds were in a civil war against the whites - the reds fought the civil war in direct opposition to every privilege of the old nobility in Russia.

That's why Nazi Germany, for instance, was regressive in women's rights. It wasn't because of any real belief in things, it was because men used to have a more dominant position over women, and in the liberal Weimar era, German women were freer. The Nazis forcefully and violently restored what was seen as the "proper order", the old hierarchies of men being firmly superior to women in the society.

I think people who really support Trump are, frankly, white people who want to assert a kind of superiority. Not even ideological superiority, for most there's no racist handbook. And they're not wrong in every way to feel bad about the situation they find themselves in; they feel dignity has been lost and their communities destroyed, and in many ways it's true. However, I think it's pretty clear that the way they're acting out on these feelings are by creating a culture of hostility towards those they want to be their social inferiors. They want to pick on blacks, Mexicans, women. They want to talk like Trump does about women and have no one mock them. Not because they have some kind of sexism burning inside of them, but because they want that inner satisfaction of knowing they can say what they want and nobody can say **** to them. It's about power and prestige.

Also, in America there's Conservatives and conservatives. Self-titled Conservatives are almost always *******s with little to say. That doesn't mean there's not valuable, generic conservatism in the more useful sense that's appreciable.
2018-07-31, 4:12 PM #10518
By the way, much of "right-wing economics", in the sense of being laissez-faire no government intervention stuff, were all liberal ideas at conception that challenged the monarchies and nobilities. In a sense, liberal ideas on such topics are so ingrained now that people don't even parse them as liberal.

Which is the general trend of history in the past 200 years. A slow march towards more liberal societies, and a bunch of people whining about it until people get murdered.
2018-07-31, 4:12 PM #10519
Except even conservatism in a base, historical sense is just as unprincipled as modern conservatism in practice, because all they tried to do was preserve or reinstate a social structure that they believe specifically benefited them.

There are black conservatives. A lot of them, probably as many as white. Do you think they’d vote to reinstate slavery because it’s the traditional order?
2018-07-31, 4:14 PM #10520
Originally posted by Reid:
By the way, much of "right-wing economics", in the sense of being laissez-faire no government intervention stuff, were all liberal ideas at conception that challenged the monarchies and nobilities. In a sense, liberal ideas on such topics are so ingrained now that people don't even parse them as liberal.

Which is the general trend of history in the past 200 years. A slow march towards more liberal societies, and a bunch of people whining about it until people get murdered.


Which is another way you could describe the business right as reactionary. Many individuals may personally believe in free markets on the right, but the business right doesn't, they want privileges and protections, i.e. they want the same kind of privileges the old nobility in Europe used to get, they're anti-liberal in that sense.

Most of the stuff people write to defend liberal economics that right-wingers prefer are just propaganda pieces to trick people into supporting various legislation (mostly removing regulations).
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