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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-08-22, 1:37 PM #3801
Originally posted by Reid:
I agree. The point Eversor made has some real validity to it, but I don't think it's true that socialism and religion are two sides of the same coin. Maybe if you go back to utopian socialists, but I don't think even class struggle in Marx is the same as religious doctrine.


I certainly wouldn't say that they're two sides of the same coin. I'm just saying that they possess some similar features, and it's probably not irrelevant that there appears to be some continuity between traditional religious ideas and modern political ideologies (although I wouldn't claim to know what that significance is. It's a big question in secularization theory, which is a literature I'm not very knowledgable about.) But my ideas about this issue can be summarized in three points:

1) the socialists' progressive understanding of history as a process that leads inexorably to its fulfillment in a utopian "End of History" is clearly similar to some of the traditional eschatological/messianic/apocalyptic ideas that one finds in Judaism and Christianity (and probably in Islam too)

2) In certain strains of socialism, history is understood to be a deterministic process governed by laws that can be understood by the human intellect (it's because history is deterministic that it's progress is inevitable, and certain things about the future can be predicted), and, subsequently, history is rendered as a science on par with the natural sciences. The idea that history is a science makes history play for socialists a role that is very similar to the role that theology has played in religion. (Although in the monotheistic religions there have always been many who disagree, throughout history theology was taken not only to be a science, but the preeminent science that was concerned with truths that are the most relevant to human happiness).

3) The socialist understanding of history as scientific has practical consequences, and the same is true of theology in a way that is similar to socialist ideology in both form and content. If you think that history can be understood scientifically, and if you think that history is concerned with the ultimate destiny of humankind, it obviously matters that you get the science/history right. But reasonable people can be driven to completely different conclusions about salient features of history and where it is headed, even when they share key assumptions. But disagreements on such matters are almost intolerable: when socialists of a certain ilk disagree about history, they're disagreeing about absolute truths, and, from a practical perspective, it's of the utmost importance that one get's it right. What's at stake, for instance, in questions about whether or not one can force the socialist/communist revolution through a heightening of the contradictions of capitalism, is the possibility of achieving a kind of redemption for all of humanity. (No surprise: Jewish and Christian theologians also argued amongst themselves about whether the messianic age/the second coming could be "hastened" through human action, and, if so, through what actions.) Getting the theory right has practical consequences. That's also a reason why theological debate is so important, and so divisive: what's at stake in getting the science right is (in some cases) eternal salvation, and it's a reason why certain views have to be deemed heretical/heterodox.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-22, 1:44 PM #3802
I'm obviously talking about a fairly specific kind of socialism (19th, 20th century). What I'm saying now has absolutely no relevance to American politics, or, say, discussions about whether the US should have a single payer healthcare system or a public option, or basically anything else that Bernie Sanders/any other economically leftist Democrats want to do.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-22, 8:14 PM #3803
New York Times article on the possibility of American unions negotiating wage controls on Mexican labor.

[quote=The New York Times]Labor Wants to Make Nafta Its Friend. Here’s the Problem.

Can Nafta be re-engineered to raise workers’ wages?*

Organized labor thinks so. As the United States sets out to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement with Mexico and Canada, union officials are pinning their hopes on President Trump’s nationalist pronouncements, betting he can deliver what President Bill Clinton failed to put on the table nearly a quarter-century ago: real protection against cheap Mexican labor.

Fooled once by a labor “side agreement” that Mr. Clinton added to Nafta to gain union approval, but that proved unable to constrain employers’ misdeeds in any significant way, labor is aiming this time for the heart of what it considers unfair competition. It is demanding a guarantee that wages — especially Mexican wages — rise to ensure a “level playing field.”

Among an extensive set of recommendations presented to the United States trade representative, the A.F.L.-C.I.O. asked that Nafta guarantee that “all workers — regardless of sector — have the right to receive wages sufficient for them to afford, in the region of the signatory country where the worker resides, a decent standard of living for the worker and her or his family.” A decent standard of living, the labor federation specified, includes food, water, housing, education, health care, transportation, clothing and other essential needs, including the ability to save for retirement and emergencies.

Exporting a product that involved workers paid less than this living wage, at any point in the production chain, would be an outright violation of Nafta, subject to standard punitive procedures.

Mexican workers would undoubtedly appreciate being able to pay for all that stuff. Demanding a wage floor is the kind of straightforward arm-twisting that Mr. Trump might appreciate. Still, using Nafta to protect American jobs by mandating Mexico’s standard of living remains a fairly loopy idea.

“Stipulating that countries must pay above-market wages when producing export goods for the U.S. feels like outrageous economic imperialism,” said David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “Should Germany also impose this rule on the U.S., since our manufacturing workers surely make less than their German counterparts who are working under industry-level labor agreements?”

It is not the first time organized labor has thought along these lines. In the early ’90s, when Nafta had yet to become law, the union-backed Alliance for Responsible Trade argued that minimum wages in the tradable-goods sectors of all three North American countries should “move as quickly as possible toward that of the highest-wage country” and allow for a decent quality of life.

This time, though, labor has a better hand. It can afford to be bolder. A quarter of a century ago, unions reluctantly acquiesced to Nafta based on the premise that American workers would get the better end of the deal — new high-skilled, well-paid jobs in a regional supply chain that sent only its low-skill, low-wage bits south of the border.

What’s more, the cheap labor they so feared would become more expensive over time. Investment in Mexico by multinationals serving the North American market would naturally lift Mexico’s standards of living to converge with those of its neighbor to the north, turning Mexicans into rich consumers hungry for American-made products.

This didn’t quite happen. American manufacturing has lost millions of jobs, and typical household incomes have increased by less than half a percent per year. Most troubling for American workers staring into a future in which Nafta is still the name of the game, the wage gap with Mexico has not closed, even with the tepid wage growth in the United States.

Despite receiving billions in investments in gleaming state-of-the-art factories since Nafta came into being, Mexico’s auto industry still pays wages between a sixth and an eighth of those in the United States.

Mexico’s depressed wages remain a potent symbol of the shortcomings of Nafta as a tool for economic development. They offer a note of caution against the proposition that liberalized trade and investment alone can deliver the developing world from poverty.

“Wages are really low in both absolute and relative terms, among the lowest wages in Latin America,” said Ben Davis, director of international affairs at the United Steelworkers union.

“Low wages in manufacturing are not because of low productivity,” he said, but because of Mexico’s policy “of keeping wages low as an incentive for companies to locate there.”

Presented with a new shot at the trade deal, labor unions do not want to be fooled again. “In 1990 we would have been laughed out of the room had we talked about living wage,” said Thea Lee, who resigned as deputy chief of staff at the A.F.L.-C.I.O. in May after two decades at the organization. But “a lot of the comforting narrative didn’t happen.”

Still, the A.F.L.-C.I.O.’s argument does not quite deliver the justice for workers it so forcefully promises. Though Nafta has not produced a rich and prosperous Mexico, the labor federation’s demand for Mexican wages to be pulled up to a North American floor is unlikely to improve jobs or wages in the United States. What’s more, such a move could halt Mexico’s development.

The idea of a living wage, said Dani Rodrik of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, “is very difficult to define and can be harmful to employment if enforced too strictly.”

Nafta’s bad reputation is largely undeserved. It did not stop the decline in manufacturing jobs in the United States, but neither did it add much to it. Even the most persistent critics acknowledge that Nafta did not cost American workers more than a very small number of jobs. Neither did Nafta have much of an effect on wages north of the Rio Grande, according to most studies.

Researchers focusing on the most vulnerable sectors have identified substantial wage losses in narrow industries, like textiles and footwear. Yet it would seem strange to argue that protecting traditional low-skill industries should guide trade policy into the future.

Mexico’s dismal wages are an urgent problem. They will not rise by fiat, however, but only by improving productivity across the economy. Mexican labor productivity has grown less than 10 percent since Nafta came into effect, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. That’s less than a third of the productivity growth in Canada, and less than a fourth of that in the United States.

What keeps Mexican wages down is not Nafta but Mexico’s vast informal economy outside the boundaries of laws and regulations, where half of the labor force toils in low-productivity jobs in small-scale manufacturing for the domestic market, low-skill services and the like.

Labor is right to worry about low wages in both the United States and Mexico, noted another economist, Gordon Hanson of the University of California, San Diego. “But a living-wage law would apply only to the formal sector, and that would make the formal sector even smaller.”

Nafta could be improved to better protect workers’ rights, assuming this is what the Trump administration really wants to do. Proposals by the A.F.L.-C.I.O. to facilitate complaints against abusive employers and to ensure quick and effective enforcement of agreed labor standards could prevent violations.

An improved Nafta could, indeed, help improve living standards for workers across North America — by further reallocating resources in the ways that are most productive. Regional integration gave the North American auto industry a competitive edge, for example, by adding a lower-wage platform in Mexico to make smaller cars. This increased the scale of production and helped sustain a larger ecosystem of auto parts makers, ultimately adding high-quality jobs that might otherwise have been lost to Asia.

Some jobs are likely to relocate to Mexico under this new deal, though. Policy makers must offer more than lip service to people displaced from their jobs by these transformations — including serious training programs and more robust safety-net services like, say, extended unemployment insurance and maybe even wage subsidies for workers who end up in lower-paying jobs.

But the core challenge is to figure out what will help productive, competitive industries grow in North America. That is something that putting a wage floor under the Mexican labor force will not do.[/quote]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/business/economy/nafta-labor-unions-wages.html
2017-08-24, 12:21 PM #3804
Originally posted by Jon`C:
No joke:

This is what happens when your expertise is expressing ideas, for want of an idea to express. Writers are the exact same way. In fact, programming and writing are the same profession, they just don't all realize it yet.


It just hit me that Paul Graham epitomizes this. He writes with flair and enthusiasm seemingly as the consequence of having the tiniest inklings, and goes on for pages solely guided by what his intuition seems to be telling him about whatever experience sparked the essay, all apparently without switching gears in order to verify his ideas by doing research on the topic. It seems his goal is to generate discussion and get feedback on his ideas, but some of the things he writes seem bizarre even with just a moment of reflection.
2017-08-26, 9:12 AM #3805
Like what?
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 10:48 AM #3806
Originally posted by Eversor:
Like what?


"September 2001

If you want to defend against hijackings, the problem you're trying to solve is one that programmers know well: the buffer overflow attack.

...

The defense that does work is to keep code and data in separate places. Then there is no way to compromise code by playing tricks with data. Garbage-collected languages like Perl and Lisp do this, and as a result are immune from buffer overflow attacks."

http://www.paulgraham.com/hijack.html
2017-08-26, 11:31 AM #3807
Looks like he just needed a way to make stating the obvious take more than a paragraph and a half.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-08-26, 11:48 AM #3808
The thing about pg's essays isn't usually that they have clearly bizarre ideas, it's an undercurrent of biases that only becomes apparent if you consider his essays as a whole.

For example, in one essay he says that nice people tend to be more successful in tech than mean people. He believes it because he is friends with more nice successful people than mean successful people. He attributes their success to the fact that nice people are less likely to be motivated by money, so instead of selling a startup early (as presumably a mean person would), they hold their company longer, to better execute on their mission of changing the world. Facebook and Google are offered as examples of this. He also acknowledges that his friend Peter Thiel, a successful mean person, thinks the most successful startups are those that can extract monopoly rents, but avoids commenting on how that is an essentially mean thing to do.

Then, in another essay, he talks about the fact that many hugely successful companies today looked for an early exit, including Facebook and Google, but were rebuffed because they asked for too much money. He says that founders who turn down "reasonable" offers are more likely to be successful, because they are motivated by money, believe their company is worth more than others think, and aren't willing to settle.

Speaking of success, in other essays he points out that the most "empirically" successful startups have multiple founders (actual research says otherwise). Then, in another essay, he makes light of VCs for being too conservative and obsessed with strange metrics and predictors for success despite having no evidence that they provide good guidance.

Taken as a whole, his essays are a bizarre collection of mutually contradictory half-thoughts.
2017-08-26, 11:58 AM #3809
Saying "mean people fail" in technology is so absurd on its face that I shouldn't even have to say anything about it. Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos,... almost all of the most successful people in tech are famously cruel to their employees. I don't think it's a necessary condition for success, but it clearly doesn't hurt, either.

Charitably, what pg actually wants is startup founders who are nice to him, someone who will bend over backwards for VCs (or forwards for them, as the situation demands). Not founders who do what is right and stick up for their employees or "mission". Uncharitably, he doesn't really know what he's saying at all.
2017-08-26, 2:17 PM #3810
The just world hypothesis in any form is absurd on its face.
2017-08-26, 3:32 PM #3811
Speaking of which, white supremacist president Trump just pardoned white supremacist ex-sheriff Joe Arpaio. Oh well. I'm sure not being a sheriff anymore won't stop him from getting caught torturing pregnant Mexican women again.
2017-08-26, 4:29 PM #3812
Trump is definitely going to be in the bottom five presidents of all time.
2017-08-26, 5:03 PM #3813
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Charitably, what pg actually wants is startup founders who are nice to him, someone who will bend over backwards for VCs (or forwards for them, as the situation demands). Not founders who do what is right and stick up for their employees or "mission". Uncharitably, he doesn't really know what he's saying at all.


Or he's trying to offer advice in good faith, and to correct a tendency that is potentially prevalent amongst young entrepreneurs. I know people who've started a start up and thought that the way to become successful was to duplicate some of the more superficial trappings of successful companies and their founders. I know someone who idolized Steve Jobs (and the like), and thought the best way to duplicate Apple's success was to develop the affectation of an ******* CEO.

The way I interpret a lot of what Altman and Graham have to say is that they're trying to correct prejudices that kids in their early 20s developed from watching The Social Network (or whatever other movie about a tech CEO) and taking it too seriously.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 5:06 PM #3814
This is just a guess, but I imagine a big part of Trump's support for Arpio has to do with them both being long time birthers.
2017-08-26, 5:23 PM #3815
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
This is just a guess, but I imagine a big part of Trump's support for Arpio has to do with them both being long time birthers.


They've also both been prosecuted for racial discrimination.

They're also both white supremacists.
2017-08-26, 5:25 PM #3816
Hmm.

Quote:
When Donald Trump pardoned racist former Sheriff Joe Arpaio, it was more than just sending a message to white supremacists that he is firmly on their side.

The top Democratic lawmaker on the House Intelligence Committee thinks it could also be a signal to Trump’s cronies who are under investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller.

And that message is: Keep your mouth shut, and Trump will abuse the powers of the Oval Office for your benefit.
Speaking with MSNBC’s Ari Melber, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) called the pardon a “political tool” and not about “the interest of justice.”

And moreover, “The concern I have is that he’s sending a message to people that may be under investigation by Bob Mueller, that ‘I have your back and I’ve got a pardon waiting for you,'” Schiff stated.

MELBER: You’re saying, based on what you’ve seen, you think [the Arpaio pardon] is an abuse because he used it as essentially a kind of political campaign ploy?

REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF: Absolutely. This is a political tool. [Trump] telegraphed it at a rally, in front of his supporters. This isn’t about the interest of justice. This isn’t about rewarding someone or giving them a second chance or acknowledging their other service to the country. This is patently political. And to the degree there is any overlap with the Russia investigation, I guess I have a different take than [Bob Bauer, White House counsel under President Barack Obama]. The concern I have is that he’s sending a message to people that may be under investigation by Bob Mueller that ‘I have your back and I’ve got a pardon waiting for you.’ I am concerned about that because obviously, this a President who is not above using the pardon power strictly in his own, very narrow personal interest.

While Trump’s pardon shows a complete disdain for the rule of law and his keen interest in backing the worst racist elements of society, it also comes on the heels of more breaking news in the Russia investigation.

On the same day that Trump issued the pardon, the Washington Post reported that lawyers for Mueller “have issued subpoenas to several prominent Washington lobbying firms as the probe examines the finances of two former Trump campaign advisers, according to people with knowledge of the requests.”

The subpoenas focus on issues related to Trump former campaign manager Paul Manafort and disgraced former national security adviser Michael Flynn.

The Post notes that Manafort and Flynn “face possible legal jeopardy for allegedly failing to disclose that foreign governments or parties may have been the beneficiaries of their consulting and lobbying work.”

Seperately, but also the same day as the Arpaio pardon, the Wall Street Journal reported that Mueller is looking into “what role, if any, former national security adviser Mike Flynn may have played in a private effort to obtain Hillary Clinton’s emails from Russian hackers, according to people familiar with the matter.”

Trump issued a pardon to one of his staunchest supporters — a pardon that did not go through the normal Justice Department process — on the same day that major stories broke showing other staunch supporters are becoming more deeply mired in the Russia investigation.

Sure, the pardon may be simply one racist abusing Constitutional powers to do a solid for a fellow racist.
But that sends a signal to other Trump cronies who are under investigation: pledge your allegiance to Trump, and Trump has got your back, respect for the Constitution and honor of the office be damned.


http://shareblue.com/top-intel-dem-says-trumps-pardon-sends-message-to-targets-of-russia-probe-i-have-your-back/
2017-08-26, 5:28 PM #3817
Trump is a moron and if he wanted to send a message he would tweet about it.
2017-08-26, 5:33 PM #3818
covfefe
2017-08-26, 5:42 PM #3819
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Trump is a moron and if he wanted to send a message he would tweet about it.


Liberals need the false narrative that Trump is some master manipulator where if you look at each of the 17th letters in his speeches it secretly spells sig heil.

Because they have no good explanation how Hillary both ran a great campaign and lost to a slobbering moron with holes in his brain.
2017-08-26, 5:44 PM #3820
Holy **** you sound like a Republican.

For Christ's sake, fight back a little bit.
2017-08-26, 5:45 PM #3821
You don't need to be a master manipulator to flagrantly ignore the rule of law.
2017-08-26, 5:51 PM #3822
Huh?
2017-08-26, 5:53 PM #3823
Originally posted by Reid:
Liberals need the false narrative that Trump is some master manipulator where if you look at each of the 17th letters in his speeches it secretly spells sig heil.

Because they have no good explanation how Hillary both ran a great campaign and lost to a slobbering moron with holes in his brain.


Tucker Carlson called. He wants his bowtie and hackneyed arguments back.

OH SNAP!!!
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 5:53 PM #3824
If you look at their rhetoric, not only is Barack Hussain Obama a master manipulator, but he is an agent of the deep state secretly plotting a silent coup against our nation's democratically elected leader. And yet the minute Dems try the same tact, you have endless people on the left accusing eachother of hypocrisy.

Look folks, the Dems have lots of flaws, but none of their hypocrisies come close to matching the gaping hole of things Republicans have refused to fess up to.
2017-08-26, 5:56 PM #3825
Originally posted by Reid:

Because they have no good explanation how Hillary both ran a great campaign and lost to a slobbering moron with holes in his brain.


If he really has holes in his brain, then I expect him to be in prison before he dies. Somehow I think he has enough brain cells left to weasel his way out of this, and Democrats might just be weak enough to let that happen.
2017-08-26, 5:57 PM #3826
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
none of their hypocrisies come close to matching the gaping hole of things Republicans have refused to fess up to.


Like the gaping holes in Trump's brain.
2017-08-26, 5:58 PM #3827
Literally, his supporters were chanting "Lock her up!" for the most insignificant of transgressions.

No, lock him up. Don't ever forget how intransigent the side you're up against is.
2017-08-26, 5:59 PM #3828
Originally posted by Eversor:
Tucker Carlson called. He wants his bowtie and hackneyed arguments back.

OH SNAP!!!


I don't know who he is. I also wasn't making an argument, I was repeating an overused joke.
2017-08-26, 6:00 PM #3829
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Literally, his supporters were chanting "Lock her up!" for the most insignificant of transgressions.

No, lock him up. Don't ever forget how intransigent the side you're up against is.


It doesn't matter whether Trump is in jail, what matters is Republicans control the House and Senate and will likely get to nominate a Supreme Court Justice. There's nothing to fight, they're ****ing things up with or without holey.
2017-08-26, 6:00 PM #3830
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
If you look at their rhetoric, not only is Barack Hussain Obama a master manipulator, but he is an agent of the deep state secretly plotting a silent coup against our nation's democratically elected leader. And yet the minute Dems try the same tact, you have endless people on the left accusing them if hypocrisy.

Look folks, the Dems have lots of flaws, but none of their hypocrisies come close to matching the gaping hole of things Republicans have refused to dress up to.
Yes, the Republican rhetoric is toxic and insane, and yes, the MSM is hypocritical for copying it. Democratic voters aren't impressed by this low-rent Republican ****, and if you don't believe me you only have to look at the last election for proof.
2017-08-26, 6:01 PM #3831
(To Reid) His brain is perfectly well functioning at moron level commensurate with his supporters. He has a lifetime of experience in saving his own skin with minimal intelligence required.
2017-08-26, 6:02 PM #3832
Lock him up for what?
2017-08-26, 6:02 PM #3833
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
His brain is perfectly well functioning at moron level commensurate with his supporters. He has a lifetime of experience in saving his own skin with minimal intelligence required.


The neurons outside of the massive holes function perfectly well, at 50% efficiency.
2017-08-26, 6:02 PM #3834
Originally posted by Reid:
I don't know who he is. I also wasn't making an argument, I was repeating an overused joke.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 6:04 PM #3835
Quote:
It doesn't matter whether Trump is in jail


It does matter if it helps the Democrats. How the heck is this not obvious?

Putting their political opponents in jail is the dream of many conservatives.
2017-08-26, 6:05 PM #3836
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Lock him up for what?


I'll leave that up to the special prosecutor.
2017-08-26, 6:05 PM #3837
Clinton violated actual lock-her-up laws, for nothing more than her own convenience, and only got a pass because Republicans broke the same laws and weren't punished. But hey, let's all pretend that impeachable = criminal.
2017-08-26, 6:13 PM #3838
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
It does matter if it helps the Democrats. How the heck is this not obvious?

Putting their political opponents in jail is the dream of many conservatives.


Removing Trump singly won't do a damn thing to help the Democrats.
2017-08-26, 6:14 PM #3839
But hey, let's not forget the criminals in the Bush administration who violated human rights up the wazoo.

The two sides are most certainly not equal when it comes to relentlessly pursuing their opponents vs
sweeping their own crimes under the rug.
2017-08-26, 6:14 PM #3840
Originally posted by Eversor:


Still don't know.
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