Massassi Forums Logo

This is the static archive of the Massassi Forums. The forums are closed indefinitely. Thanks for all the memories!

You can also download Super Old Archived Message Boards from when Massassi first started.

"View" counts are as of the day the forums were archived, and will no longer increase.

ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404142434445464748495051525354555657585960616263646566676869707172737475767778798081828384858687888990919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126127128129130131132133134135136137138139140141142143144145146147148149150151152153154155156157158159160161162163164165166167168169170171172173174175176177178179180181182183184185186187188189190191192193194195196197198199200201202203204205206207208209210211212213214215216217218219220221222223224225226227228229230231232233234235236237238239240241242243244245246247248249250251252253254255256257258259260261262263264265266267268269270271272273274275276277278279280281282283284285286287288289290291292293294295296297298299300301302303304305306307308309310311312313314315316317318319320321322323324325326327328329330331332333334335336337338339340341342343344345346347348349350351352353354355356357358359360361362363364365366367368369370371372373374375376377378379380381382383384385386387388389390391392393394395396397398399400401
Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-03-18, 11:12 AM #8201
Originally posted by Reid:
The United States is not very democratic in practice.


Yes?

Shadi Hamid wrote a wonderful review of Yascha Mounk's book for the national interest. It's behind a paywall, but I copied and pasted it. I think it contains a very apt description of the anti-democratic tendency in American liberalism (and also in the European Union) that set the groundwork for the populist wave.

Quote:
“Democracy” is one of the most misunderstood words in the English language. In popular usage, it has become shorthand for all that is good and positive. When it comes to our political or ideological opponents, we tend to think that they are less committed to democracy than we are—or, more recently, that they are outright anti-democratic.

The sloppy way we talk about populists is a case in point: “Populist” is too often used as an epithet, casually and interchangeably standing in for “authoritarian,” “despot,” or “dictator.” In most Western democracies (Portugal being the most notable exception) populist parties are contending for second place, and sometimes more. In at least two countries—Hungary and Poland—they have claimed victory. This magnifies the threat, but, as with all threats, it also magnifies the distortions. It’s easy to see why well-meaning analysts, seeing the future of their own democracies as far less than a sure thing, end up resorting to advocacy and alarmism. It’s understandable, but that doesn’t make it right.

Many academics are able to write about things they don’t like—from odious individuals to extreme ideologies—in a dispassionate manner. The group today most associated with evil, the Islamic State, regularly manages to elicit balanced analyses from scholars—far more so than the kind of “analysis” that Donald Trump has provoked.

There are seemingly two types of Trump laments being published these days: end of democracy books and end of liberalism books. Yascha Mounk’s The People vs. Democracy is the latest entrant in the former category, and probably the most ambitious. It manages to avoid the overwrought alarmism, partisan attacks, and Hitler references that sullied Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt’s How Democracies Die and Timothy Snyder’s occasionally silly pamphlet On Tyranny. Yet as with all books that speak to a present danger—its unsubtle subtitle is “Why Our Freedom Is in Danger and How to Save It”—Mounk, like a good Paul Thomas Anderson film, struggles in the final third.

The problem with populists—or more precisely the problem with writing about them—isn’t that they’re anti-democratic but rather that they can be quite democratic, more democratic than their opponents, perhaps even too democratic. This is also one of the main reasons—besides racism or Russian meddling—that they seem to do quite well in elections. And not surprisingly, the better they do in elections, the more they seem to like democracy. Anyone who wishes to make sense of populist success, as well as learn from it, must start here. This is precisely what Mounk does, offering a much needed dose of conceptual clarity.

At the heart of Mounk’s inquiry is the notion that the two core components of liberal democracy—namely liberalism and democracy—are coming apart. For most of the modern era, these two concepts seemed to go hand-in-hand, at least in the West. The classical liberal tradition, emerging out of the Enlightenment after Europe exhausted itself with wars of belief, prioritized non-negotiable personal freedoms and individual autonomy, eloquently captured in documents like the Bill of Rights. Meanwhile, democracy, while requiring some basic protection of rights to allow for meaningful competition, was more concerned with popular sovereignty, popular will, and responsiveness to the voting public.

Mounk identifies how the disjunction has started to manifest:

On the one hand, the preferences of the people are increasingly illiberal: voters are growing impatient with independent institutions and less and less willing to tolerate the rights of ethnic and religious minorities. On the other hand, elites are taking hold of the political system and making it increasingly unresponsive: the powerful are less and less willing to cede to the views of the people. As a result, liberalism and democracy… are starting to come into conflict.

But is this such a new phenomenon? The story of politics is arguably a story of a struggle between these two impulses, founded as they are on different conceptions of human needs and wants. Once our current moment is cast in this historical context, it becomes easier to make sense of it.

American and European democracy might seem under threat today, but the fact that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, founding fathers of the Republic, nearly took up arms against each other adds some needed perspective. More important, though, is what they fought over. As Jason Willick recently noted, Adams was infatuated with monarchy, believed Jefferson and his allies were colluding with France, and infamously said that “democracy will infallibly destroy all civilization.” In a letter to the Prussian scientist Alexander von Humboldt, Thomas Jefferson had a rather different perspective:

The first principle of republicanism is that the lex majoris partis is the fundamental law of every society of individuals of equal rights; to consider the will of the society enounced by the majority of a single vote as sacred as if unanimous is the first of all lessons in importance, yet the last which is thoroughly learnt. This law once disregarded, no other remains but that of force, which ends necessarily in military despotism.

Were the masses to be feared and constrained or were they to be empowered? Rather than simply sounding the warning on illiberal democrats—the Trumps, Le Pens, and Orbans—Mounk, to his credit, also pays considerable attention to “undemocratic liberalism.” He identifies, correctly, that the former are partly a response to the latter. Right-wing populists aren’t outsiders to history. They are products of their time; they represent something deep and deeply felt, if also inchoate; they eagerly meet a burgeoning demand. For their part, undemocratic liberals bear responsibility for allowing the frustration to build, producing what the political theorist Samuel Goldman calls “the peculiar mix of panic and inertia” that today seems endemic in Western civic life.

Born in the ashes of World War II but triumphant after the Cold War, undemocratic liberalism has increasingly asserted itself through guardian judiciaries, watchful central banks, and centralized bureaucracies, whether through expansive federal governments or supranational structures like the European Union. The term “deep state,” itself a Middle Eastern import, has lately been weaponized by American populist-nationalists, suggesting something hidden and nefarious. Except there’s nothing particularly hidden about it. As Mounk notes, “A broad field of academic study has found both that it is very hard for politicians to control the bureaucracy, and that the scope of decisions made by bureaucratic agencies has expanded over the years.”

The reach of technocratic policymaking—the “administrative state” in Bannonite parlance—would not have been possible a hundred years ago. Technological progress, scientific advancement, and the necessity of ambitious welfare states to maintain social order has since made it inevitable. At the same time, higher levels of educational attainment, expectations of egalitarianism, and the universal availability of information (false or otherwise) have made citizens more aware of all the things they were unaware of.

Unfortunately, these are problems without obvious solutions. Modern government istechnocratic government. Most citizens do not understand the details of regulatory policy; but even if they did, there is little to suggest that arguments over legislative minutiae would successfully mobilize electoral coalitions. So Mounk, and the rest of us, are stuck: “The case,” he writes, “for taking so many policy decisions out of democratic contestation may be perfectly sound. But even if it is, this does not change the fact that the people no longer have a real say in all these policy areas. In other words, undemocratic liberalism may have great benefits—but that doesn’t give us a good reason to blind ourselves to its nature.”

Alienated from the details of tax policy, healthcare mandates, or the vagaries of environmental regulations, voters have instead focused their energy on questions of culture, identity, and race. But, even here, governing elites wished to make sensitive conversations—especially surrounding immigration and its consequences—off-limits for polite democratic deliberation. To make matters worse, it was done in a condescending way, with enlightened moral appeals to multi-culturalism and anti-racism juxtaposed to the untutored bigotry of the masses. There was an aesthetic component as well: It was in bad taste to question the liberal consensus.

Politicians mistook immigration as just another matter for policy wonks to fiddle with—a value-neutral problem for which there was an optimal solution. Voters didn’t see it that way and repeatedly tried to get politicians to listen. In a 2012 YouGov survey, only 8 percent of British citizens said current levels of immigration had “a positive effect” on Britain. 78 percent of respondents—96 percent from the Conservative Party and 63 percent from Labour—supported Prime Minister David Cameron’s pledge to reduce immigration from hundreds of thousands to “tens of thousands.” What’s perhaps most interesting, though, is that very few respondents had any faith immigration levels would, or even could, change: Only 15 percent said it was likely Cameron would live up to his pledge.

As the immigration opponent and Islam critic Douglas Murray remarked in his controversial book The Strange Death of Europe, even the allegedly Trumpist Boris Johnson, then Mayor of London, wrote in 2012: “We need to stop moaning about the dam-burst. It’s happened. There is nothing we can now do except make the process of absorption as eupeptic as possible.” Murray writes:

Perhaps nothing was done to reverse the trend because no one in power believed anything could be done. If this was a political truth then it remained wholly unmentionable. Nobody could get elected on such a platform, and so a continent-wide tradition arose of politicians saying things and making promises that they knew to be unachievable.

Perhaps the rest of us believe that these sentiments are mere bigotry by another name, but they were there all the same, building in the body politic, claiming sometimes large majorities. Yet, politicians were unable or unwilling to take their concerns particularly seriously. That unwillingness could quickly turn into disdain.

Immigration was only one example of the de-politicization of politics in the self-congratulatory haze of the post-Cold War. As the Christian theologian Matthew Kaemingk observed in the Netherlands, “Dutch political debates had devolved into arguments over which party was better equipped to manage the liberal state, the liberal economy, and the liberal culture. No longer did the socialist or Christian leaders seriously argue that the government or the market rested under the sovereignty of either God or the workers’ collective.”

This was the “anti-politics” of undemocratic liberalism laid bare: a preference to narrow the range of political debate and prioritize technocratic “nudging,” by making marginal improvements within a consensus that would remain essentially unquestioned. It was, in its pristine ideal, a democracy without conflict, which soon revealed itself to be a contradiction in terms. Its search for consensus, however well-meaning, was self-defeating: Consensus is only possible when there is already consensus—and there rarely is. An artificial consensus, manufactured and nurtured by the powerful, is by definition exclusionary, pushing away anything that offers a whiff of radicalism, whether the “inclusive populism” of Bernie Sanders or the stylistic pomp-populism of Donald Trump.

Mounk is at his best when railing against the dangers of anti-politics and empty paeans to post-ideology. For it’s not just that managerial technocracy creates an opening for populists; The populists’ own politics end up so confounding to liberals that they become their own worst enemies. In discussing Venezuela’s descent into autocracy, Mounk points out how the opposition bore considerable responsibility for the resilience of Hugo Chavez. He quotesthe Venezuelan economist Andrés Miguel Rondón: “We wouldn’t stop pontificating about how stupid Chavismo was. ‘Really, this guy? Are you nuts? You must be nuts,’ we’d say. The subtext was clear: Look, idiots—he will destroy the country.” Similarly, the Italian economist Luigi Zingales, writing after Trump’s victory, reminded Americans of Italy’s own vulgarian Silvio Berlusconi: The Italian opposition “was so rabidly obsessed with his personality that any substantive political debate disappeared.”

We are far removed from the time, in 2009, when Barack Obama could have called for a “new declaration of independence…from ideology.” To limit populist inroads, Mounk suggests, requires more than mere resistance or the stopgap measure of a charismatic centrist who will lull us into thinking the storm has passed; it requires a fighting spirit, and perhaps even a fighting faith. It also requires more inward reflection on the part of an elite that still thinks it knows better (and sometimes seems to wish it could do away with the inconvenience of elections altogether). It requires bigger ideas that can absorb some populist anger—without the xenophobia—while putting forward a true political alternative.

This, though, is the hardest part. Like with many books that aspire for policy impact and relevance, Mounk’s book struggles to transition from a cutting analysis to a compelling plan of action. It’s not just that the pivot is unconvincing. It’s that in attempting to pull it off, Mounk sometimes falls into the very traps he himself so eloquently describes in the first two thirds of the book. There is a tendency to rely on a set of obvious, if vague institutional fixes. His goal is for the liberal state to live up to its stated ideals through a shared commitment to fairness and equal protections under the law. He is seeking to construct something he calls “inclusive nationalism,” a concept that sometimes overlaps with Jürgen Habermas’ idea of “constitutional patriotism.” Like Habermas, Mounk ultimately puts a lot of faith in people getting fired up about a rationally ordered and fair society.

Mounk’s policy chops are impressive—the section on housing policy has the virtue of being both interesting and plausible—but after an ambitious buildup, the recommendations seem anticlimactic, the sort of technocratic to-do list that would be well at home on the websites of well-studied Democratic politicians or, for that matter, the Center for American Progress. Like all anti-populists, Mounk is tempted by a narrow instrumentalism. Policy fixes serve no grander narrative and no greater cause; reform is primarily a means to keep populists at bay. To return to politics is to find new ways of ending it. There is little doubt that Mounk would prefer a world without populists. But without energetic challengers, one wonders why the parties of the center-Left and center-Right would so much as consider rethinking their aims.

There is nothing wrong with a failure of imagination per se, but it does illustrate, perhaps inadvertently, how difficult addressing the “problem” of populism will be. There may not, in fact, be a solution.

I am an ordinary liberal—my liberalism a product of convenience more than conviction. I’m a liberal largely because I’m a product of liberalism. Yascha Mounk, though, is a true believer. He doesn’t have a big idea, at least not a new one. His big idea is liberalism. Whether or not that will be enough—or whether it can be—is a question his book cannot answer.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:16 AM #8202
Originally posted by Reid:
Oh, I agree. Except you're not grasping why politics are so ****ed in America. It's not in any capacity because we don't know what people want. Americans are polled to death, we know very accurately what Americans want. It's that nobody ever present on any ballot sheet has the intention of doing any of those things.

The American public has less say because some people very much want them to have less say.


No, I grasp very well why it doesn't happen. (Funny that you'd go there again, but okay.) In the case of the Republican Party, I think it has more to do with Citizens United and the incentive structure it set up. The Republican Party is now more accountable to its donor base than to its voting base, in the sense winning support of donors is a more important factor in winning elections, so to its more important for the party to have big legislative wins to bring back to its donors than to the voters. I'm sure this is true of Democrats to some extent as well. Citizens United brought a lot more money into politics, raised the barrier for entry significantly, and created an arms war between politicians (sometimes even politicians of the same party).
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:26 AM #8203
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I'm guessing Reid doesn't count the defences that Eversor listed because he doesn't agree with them.

In Reid's mind: unconvincing => lacking credibility


Maybe the distinction I'm trying to point out, is often these are not just unconvincing to me, but unconvincing to a wide array of professionals in the relevant field. That's why I've been hammering on the GOP tax bill and economists so much. Economists of any group you'd expect to be on the GOP's side of things. But even economists this time aren't defending the GOP views. If there's a plurality of expert opinion, all saying much the same thing about a bill, that makes it more or less "the right opinion," I don't see how you can have a reasonable debate if there's basically nobody who will take one of the opposing two sides. I guess you could have a debate about to what extent the Republicans are engaging in class war?
2018-03-18, 11:28 AM #8204
Originally posted by Eversor:
No, I grasp very well why it doesn't happen. (Funny that you'd go there again, but okay.) In the case of the Republican Party, I think it has more to do with Citizens United and the incentive structure it set up. The Republican Party is now more accountable to its donor base than to its voting base, in the sense winning support of donors is a more important factor in winning elections, so to its more important for the party to have big legislative wins to bring back to its donors than to the voters. I'm sure this is true of Democrats to some extent as well. Citizens United brought a lot more money into politics, raised the barrier for entry significantly, and created an arms war between politicians (sometimes even politicians of the same party).


I'm on board with this view. Are you saying, then, that a public debate about policy would bring to the public attention things like Citizen's United and its effect on the electoral process?
2018-03-18, 11:29 AM #8205
Originally posted by Reid:
Maybe the distinction I'm trying to point out, is often these are not just unconvincing to me, but unconvincing to a wide array of professionals in the relevant field. That's why I've been hammering on the GOP tax bill and economists so much. Economists of any group you'd expect to be on the GOP's side of things. But even economists this time aren't defending the GOP views. If there's a plurality of expert opinion, all saying much the same thing about a bill, that makes it more or less "the right opinion," I don't see how you can have a reasonable debate if there's basically nobody who will take one of the opposing two sides. I guess you could have a debate about to what extent the Republicans are engaging in class war?


The fact that it was so bad was the precise reason why there should have been such a vigorous debate about the details of the legislation. Claiming that the Republicans are engaging in class war is little more than an ad hominem attack that will only resonate with the Democratic base, however true it might be.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:32 AM #8206
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm on board with this view. Are you saying, then, that a public debate about policy would bring to the public attention things like Citizen's United and its effect on the electoral process?


No. I'm saying that our debate should be more similar to the debate that our politicians have when they deliberate over legislation. Our public debate should be an extension of the debate our representatives have when they're in session considering the trade offs of legislation.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:35 AM #8207
Originally posted by Eversor:
The fact that it was so bad was the precise reason why there should have been such a vigorous debate about the details of the legislation. Claiming that the Republicans are engaging in class war is little more than an ad hominem attack that will only resonate with the Democratic base.


I see. I guess the thing I was not jiving with is, I don't see why debating the details matters that much. It doesn't seem to me that some of the minute changes in various parts are a big deal, compared to the key items on the tax bill and what they change, i.e. a lowering of the corporate tax rate, at a time when no economist expects it to produce investment (actually, just to strengthen the already insane stock market) and give direct tax cuts to the wealthy.

I don't see what the benefit of debating details is. It seems like it just sidetracks from the main issue.

Also, yeah, calling it class war isn't the best rhetoric, but that should be the underlying idea in communicating the intent of the tax bill.
2018-03-18, 11:36 AM #8208
Remember that time when Job`C suggested that Eversor may have been away from the US for too long?

This place is nuts. Public debate an extension of our legislature? LMAO, conservative talk radio regularly and seemingly without rhyme or reason lambasts their own representatives in order to shift the discussion rightward at all costs.
2018-03-18, 11:38 AM #8209
Originally posted by Eversor:
No. I'm saying that our debate should be more similar to the debate that our politicians have when they deliberate over legislation. Our public debate should be an extension of the debate our representatives have when they're in session considering the trade offs of legislation.


We can debate all day where to build our houses on Jupiter, but if we have no meaningful way of building them, isn't it a pointless debate?

^ that's how most Americans feel about all of this, and moreover many aren't wrong. In many districts your political opinion, vote or no vote, is incapable of affecting anything that happens in congress. That is changing post Trump, but only because we're basically at crisis levels of corruption and ****ery in government driving people away from bad optics rather than a change in political understanding.
2018-03-18, 11:40 AM #8210
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Remember that time when Job`C suggested that Eversor may have been away from the US for too long?

This place is nuts. Public debate an extension of our legislature? LMAO, conservative talk radio regularly and seemingly without rhyme or reason lambasts their own representatives in order to shift the discussion rightward at all costs.


Also, basically this. The idea does kind of absurd when you compare it to the discourse right now.

I can hardly handle Democrat-leaning sources, what with the daily screaming and cheering of the Mueller investigation.
2018-03-18, 11:42 AM #8211
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm on board with this view.


It's funny I can generally predict that Reid is going to agree with me when I say something cynical.

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Remember that time when Job`C suggested that Eversor may have been away from the US for too long?

This place is nuts. Public debate an extension of our legislature? LMAO, conservative talk radio regularly and seemingly without rhyme or reason lambasts their own representatives in order to shift the discussion rightward at all costs.


I'm not being descriptive, I'm being proscriptive. So much about America would have to change in order for us to have this kind of debate. In fact, I'm not even suggesting we realistically could have this kind of debate. However, Vox is a publication that shows that there's at least a market for media companies that produce the kind of content that is conducive to the kind of debate I'm talking about.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:42 AM #8212
Re: Eversor’s enormous quote

Immigration is another one of those issues that people need context in order to have a substantive public debate. The politicians, media, and government all deny the context for the same reason they do it about government revenue. Not the least reason for which is the fact that immigration and government revenue are, in substance, the same debate.
2018-03-18, 11:45 AM #8213
Originally posted by Reid:
We can debate all day where to build our houses on Jupiter, but if we have no meaningful way of building them, isn't it a pointless debate?

^ that's how most Americans feel about all of this, and moreover many aren't wrong. In many districts your political opinion, vote or no vote, is incapable of affecting anything that happens in congress. That is changing post Trump, but only because we're basically at crisis levels of corruption and ****ery in government driving people away from bad optics rather than a change in political understanding.


Right. For that reason, politics should be boring. Your vote shouldn't matter much, because you should be able to expect that, at the end of the day, your kid is going to be off better than you were, and you're going to be able to retire at a reasonable age, and you have some prospects of upward mobility. In general, democracies don't do well when these conditions no longer exist.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:49 AM #8214
Is Trump really changing the debate? It just looks like more of the same to me.
2018-03-18, 11:53 AM #8215
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Re: Eversor’s enormous quote

Immigration is another one of those issues that people need context in order to have a substantive public debate. The politicians, media, and government all deny the context for the same reason they do it about government revenue. Not the least reason for which is the fact that immigration and government revenue are, in substance, the same debate.


It strikes me that, at the heart of it, immigration doesn't need that much context, although the reason why we bring in so many immigrants isn't a compelling story that people will mobilize around and fire up the base. What primarily motivates immigration policy the fact that birth rates in most developed countries are below the replacement rate, which means that we don't have enough laborers to tax to generate the government revenue we need to pay for services for our aging populations. So we bring in immigrants so we have growing populations and ever expanding government revenue.

People could know that if they wanted to. The information's out there. But it's not the sort of thing that will get millennials out to vote, so its not the story that our media tells.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 11:57 AM #8216
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Is Trump really changing the debate? It just looks like more of the same to me.


Agreed.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 12:00 PM #8217
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yes?

Shadi Hamid wrote a wonderful review of Yascha Mounk's book for the national interest. It's behind a paywall, but I copied and pasted it. I think it contains a very apt description of the anti-democratic tendency in American liberalism (and also in the European Union) that set the groundwork for the populist wave.


Yeah, I think that's a pretty accurate view, even though I think it's a bit lofty in how it tries to appeal to all these big-name thinkers.

In some ways I do tend towards the liberal reactionary side of things, I think the assertion that most people are really dumb and populism can lead to dumb policies is apt. I also think we're at a point where liberal anti-democracy is at it's maximum, and we're not likely to see our systems continue as they are for much longer without some serious political upheavals and changes. But I'm also not scared of some real, change-inducing, scary real populism. My only fear is that the populism will be of the Bolshevik or the Nazi sort than the civil rights sort.
2018-03-18, 12:02 PM #8218
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Re: Eversor’s enormous quote

Immigration is another one of those issues that people need context in order to have a substantive public debate. The politicians, media, and government all deny the context for the same reason they do it about government revenue. Not the least reason for which is the fact that immigration and government revenue are, in substance, the same debate.


This is true. Cheap labor + increased demand props up an economy and helps business. The only two things which matter!
2018-03-18, 12:18 PM #8219
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Is Trump really changing the debate? It just looks like more of the same to me.


Not changing the debate, but changing how people vote. I think people who used to be more moderate are rapidly disillusioned with the Republicans.
2018-03-18, 12:37 PM #8220
But it's all a wash: because Americans don't understand economics, the reaction from the center is to embrace the NYT narrative and the DNC identity politics that keeps the current economic order in place, just to fight the boogeyman of racism and intolerance, which is first grade stuff. All this does is radicalize the right and reinforce neoliberalism by creating further division along race or class, while people are obsessed with the former and blind to the latter.
2018-03-18, 12:56 PM #8221
Originally posted by Reid:
Not changing the debate, but changing how people vote. I think people who used to be more moderate are rapidly disillusioned with the Republicans.


It's temporary. The Democrats are only hot **** right now because they're not in power and government in general is unpopular. And also because incumbent powers usually suffer from low turnout and complacency after they take the White House. If you want to know how short the American electorate's memory is, look no further than the Democrats losing the house in 2010, despite Obama's big victory and Bush's abysmal popularity in 2008.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 12:58 PM #8222
Really, if swing voters could vote for a Republican after Bush, then you have to ask what sort of catastrophe would have to happen in order for a generation swear off voting for a certain party for the rest of their lives.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 1:00 PM #8223
I love this quote:

Quote:
George Bush faced an unusual number of moments of crisis. In December 2008, Morgan Freeman attended a reception at the White House. Bush “cited the actor’s many credits, including ‘Deep Impact,’ in which Freeman played a president confronted by a civilization-ending comet-strike against the earth. . . . ‘About the only thing that hasn’t happened in the last eight years,’ he ad-libbed. . . . When he took his seat again, Rice leaned over. ‘Don’t tempt fate,’ she said. ‘We’ve still got a few weeks left.’”


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/books/review/peter-bakers-days-of-fire.html
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 1:12 PM #8224
Originally posted by Eversor:
It's temporary. The Democrats are only hot **** right now because they're not in power and government in general is unpopular. And also because incumbent powers usually suffer from low turnout and complacency after they take the White House. If you want to know how short the American electorate's memory is, look no further than the Democrats losing the house in 2010, despite Obama's big victory and Bush's abysmal popularity in 2008.


Yup, I have no delusions that this is going to last forever, because the Democrats are also pushing a "liberal anti-democratic" line, they just put a bit of makeup on it, and I think most Americans are aware of that.

I also feel what's happening right now is a bit deeper than 2008. It's not as if swing districts are slighting more democratic, we have some very massive shifts in very Republican areas, which suggests a much deeper skepticism has arisen. If the Democrats don't shift more progressive/economically left, which I think they won't, then the populism is only going to get worse, and I'm afraid it might not be the good kind of populism.
2018-03-18, 1:17 PM #8225
I mean, there's a reason pussy hat feminism is still a major force in the Democratic party, and it's not because it's subversive to the political order.
2018-03-18, 1:17 PM #8226
Originally posted by Eversor:
It strikes me that, at the heart of it, immigration doesn't need that much context, although the reason why we bring in so many immigrants isn't a compelling story that people will mobilize around and fire up the base. What primarily motivates immigration policy the fact that birth rates in most developed countries are below the replacement rate, which means that we don't have enough laborers to tax to generate the government revenue we need to pay for services for our aging populations. So we bring in immigrants so we have growing populations and ever expanding government revenue.

People could know that if they wanted to. The information's out there. But it's not the sort of thing that will get millennials out to vote, so its not the story that our media tells.


Originally posted by Reid:
This is true. Cheap labor + increased demand props up an economy and helps business. The only two things which matter!


Immigration is the cheapest way to increase debt service. The higher your future debt service and the lower your future expenditures, the bigger a deficit you can run today. That means you can cut taxes and sell bonds, two things that predominately benefit the rich.

If the government simply wanted to increase population, they could set policies that encourage domestic reproduction. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit; the United States, in particular, is one of the most hostile countries on earth for reproduction, especially among white professionals. Like immigration, such policies would drive down wages, increase demand, and expand the tax base in the long term. The disadvantage, however, is that children need to be brought up and educated. That's a major financial outlay and a cognitive drain on the most valuable workers, and that's in addition to whatever the growth policy costs. Immigrants are ready to work, fresh off the boat. (And, to rich people, are probably not any more alien.)

Do you understand the distinction? It's saying that nations are not the people. Nations are entities that supersede people. It's saying that the United States, or France, or Germany, or Canada, would happily replace their citizens with a cheaper foreign substitute if it better enabled the nation's goals. Not the peoples' goals, the nation's. If an Arab-dominated United States could retain dominance of the world, then the United States would gleefully replace its citizens with Arab immigrants. The United States considers itself more important than all of the people who happen to live in the United States. That's what the missing context means.

So here's where the debate ought to start. The current US government wants to run a deep deficit on massive tax cuts. Normally because they expect major mid-term demographic changes, like immigration or a population boom. But the current US government is also viciously anti-immigrant, anti-education, anti-welfare, effectively anti- anything that could cause demographic change. So why?

Raises the hairs on the back of your neck now, doesn't it?
2018-03-18, 1:18 PM #8227
Also, I'm reading some articles from the four publications you linked, and I'm trying to do so in good faith. I'll get back later on any thoughts of substance I have.
2018-03-18, 1:23 PM #8228
Also read Douthat, if you don't already.

(Also, there were five publications.)
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 1:37 PM #8229
I think the reason why the NYT hired Bari Weiss and Bret Stephens is primarily because they thought if they poached them, they could probably poach their readers, too. That is, they thought they'd get more subscribers. I don't really know. Maybe most WSJ subscribers already have NYT subscription's anyway, but there are probably plenty of people ought there who are like Weiss and Stephens: people who are basically liberal but skeptical of the social media-left's orthodoxy when it comes to social issues, economically conservative, and interested in foreign affairs. I'm sure part of taking them on was to diversify their op-ed page out of a sense of civic obligation, but part of it was probably to pull in more subscriptions from people who are just slightly more conservative than most NYT readers, but still have the outlooks of northeastern elites (so they're probably business oriented, too).

It also can't just be an accident that both of them are Never Trumpers. In general, it seems that prominent Never Trumpers are becoming slightly more liberal on select issues now that they're distancing from the Republican party.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 1:54 PM #8230
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Do you understand the distinction? It's saying that nations are not the people. Nations are entities that supersede people. It's saying that the United States, or France, or Germany, or Canada, would happily replace their citizens with a cheaper foreign substitute if it better enabled the nation's goals. Not the peoples' goals, the nation's. If an Arab-dominated United States could retain dominance of the world, then the United States would gleefully replace its citizens with Arab immigrants. The United States considers itself more important than all of the people who happen to live in the United States. That's what the missing context means.


Yeah. Some of the Breitbart rhetoric about immigration didn't seem that preposterous to me. What'd Steve Bannon say? "a country’s more than an economy. We’re a civic society." At the very least, we should be able to talk about that opinion without screaming racist at the person who says it. I don't think having concerns about the ways in which immigration alters the social fabric and self-conception of a country is unreasonable, and it doesn't necessarily involve a racist conception of national identity (although it can, of course, be racist, and I think the context of Bannon's remarks raise some flags).
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 2:15 PM #8231
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yeah. Some of the Breitbart rhetoric about immigration didn't seem that preposterous to me. What'd Steve Bannon say? "a country’s more than an economy. We’re a civic society." At the very least, we should be able to talk about that opinion without screaming racist at the person who says it. I don't think having concerns about the ways in which immigration alters the social fabric and self-conception of a country is unreasonable, or necessarily racist (although it can be, of course, and I think the context of Bannon's remarks raise some flags).


Bannon probably wants the US to be a caucasian ethnostate. Which, by the way, is a really neat way to avoid your identity's political influence from being inflated away.

But that's just missing more context. Can the US even survive without external forcing from immigration? You might be saving your grandkids from becoming a displaced people while making life much worse for your great grandkids.
2018-03-18, 2:19 PM #8232
(It didn't work for Rome)
2018-03-18, 2:48 PM #8233
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Bannon probably wants the US to be a caucasian ethnostate. Which, by the way, is a really neat way to avoid your identity's political influence from being inflated away.


I agree that that's where Bannon is at. On the other hand, I think many Democrats are taking certain issues to be settled that aren't. For some time, American national identity was premised on equality of opportunity and the promise of upward social mobility, both of which went with an ethic of hard work and an openness to immigration. Immigrants could become Americans just by coming to the States and working hard and succeeding.

But since that myth no longer is believable, due in no small part to the Great Recession, America needs to find a new basis for national identity.

It doesn't need to be racist, as Bannon wants. It doesn't need to be based on an unwritten obligation that exists between generations living and generations unborn, as Edmund Burke put it. It doesn't need to be based on a shared history, or even a shared language, as 19th century European nationalists believed. It could be based, for instance, on a duty that individuals have towards each other, which is most fully expressed in paying into a generous national single-payer healthcare system.

But as it stands, Democrats aren't really presenting an alternative to the American dream, and the conception of the nation it implies, aside from "it's good that white people will be a minority in the 2040s, but I don't know why. Let's clap!"
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 3:00 PM #8234
An important element of nationalism is the duty and sense of responsibility that citizens of a nation feel towards each other. Nationalism does conflict with a cosmopolitanism that says a citizen is a citizen of the world and a brother of all humanity before all else, and that one has no obligation to one's fellow citizens that one doesn't also have towards citizens of any other country. The cosmopolitan view is one that is compatible with unrestricted immigration, because, for the cosmopolitan, living in a country is nothing more than a mere accident of geography.

But even though nationalism conflicts with cosmopolitanism, because it does assert that citizens of the same country do have an obligation to each other, it doesn't necessarily entail parochialism, chauvinism or racism.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 3:45 PM #8235
Originally posted by Eversor:
Heh, what are you even asking me for? Go read the National Review, or the Weekly Standard, or City Journal, or the Wall Street Journal op-ed page, or Commentary, or, whatever other respectable conservative publication, and read sympathetically. "American conservatism" is a multivalent phenomenon. What would a "defense" of it look like? What would a "defense" of "the left" look like?


Originally posted by Eversor:
Also read Douthat, if you don't already.

(Also, there were five publications.)


Sure enough, there were five. I tried to avoid "news"-style articles and focus more on opinion pieces. I found a few articles that I thought were interesting and had good ideas. I had thoughts as well on some of the meta-story properties of these different publications, in particular comments about what topics they choose to emphasize, more on that later.

Some random thoughts: The publications that publish a wider variety of people I thought were of generally better substance than ones that skewed more purely conservative (I often found myself agreeing with an article, only to google the author and find they skew center-left). One thing I'm sure of now after looking through these: American conservatives are in an all-out war on higher education.

I also, again, still found there to be a resonating hollowness to much of what I read from some of these publications. I see so often the refrain: "Freedom of ideas are under attack in America. We are in such a crisis." Each conservative publication hammers this point home, it's at the point of pathological obsession the sheer volume and insistence on this. What I find lacking, though, is this: what ideas? For every article on the assault of the freedom of ideas, I can find less than one on any of the actual ideas themselves. And I was pretty much confirmed in one of my biases after reading: that I feel conservatives are deeply concerned with policing discourse, but generally have little of importance to say in the discourse. In other words, the discourse itself is just a massive, long complaint about the discourse, and only rarely seems to reach any topic of substance.

But now to some actual articles:

City Journal I found to be hypocritically obsessed with morality, with articles like Judicial Depravity in California, "Equity" Before Security. These make up a large percentage of their articles, and they're basically contentless. They amount to little more than heavy-handed, sanctimonious criticisms of the "lawless liberals" in California, NY and other blue hotspots.

There were two articles that caught my attention, and one was one I thought was worth really commenting on. First, I wanted to talk a little about myself and my relation to rural living. I grew up in a rural part of southern California. My grandfather worked for the Soil Conservation Service, I lived near orange groves and had family friends in the business, we raised a herd of goats which we used to produce our own cheese, maintained a large garden. We never were strictly "poor", so I haven't had that exact experience, but I've had to, say, kill animals that were suffering, assist in live births and kill varmints, so, yeah, I don't feel I'm a "liberal pansy" in any way who's ignorant of the realities of rural living. And maybe that's why I find the comment of "liberal nonunderstanding" of rural life a bit mysterious, because maybe it's not at all personally relateable to me. On the other hand, are they getting at something? Possibly, that liberals are ignorant and unaware of how and why food and other things come to them. I mean, I'm not a vegetarian, even though I do think people should cut down meat consumption dramatically. And I do know some people who are incapable of understanding the intrinsic cruelty of nature. So there's something there. However, at the same time, I think that their characterization goes too far. It's not the case that liberals are all just wrong to have problems with how we get food. Mechanized farming can be abhorrently cruel, to the point where the suffering we create for animals goes increases drastically for marginal economic benefits that we can best describe as "slim".

However the assertion that rural people are "independent", that like, they're free of groupthink because of their lifestyle, is ****ing dumb. Also, this article reflects the Mike Rowe, dirty jobs style propaganda, the typical Republican refrain that says "all these pansy ******s don't work as hard as me, so nonadem deserve any higher wages". Uh, or maybe you could work with them to earn more together, and not turn it into a competition to see who works the hardest for the least pay? This veneration of hard work for hard work's sake is something that conservatives seem to value, and as hard as I try I can't fathom why anyone would ever accept that value. Maybe it's the Nietzsche in me, but a self-sacrifice value that doesn't even benefit the community, instead benefiting a small group of the worst *******s alive, seems like the dumbest possible value.

The other thing I thought was interesting was liberals of convenience. In many ways, I think it's right. There's something of a tendency to want to solve problems through regulation for many people, and it's true that, often, deregulation is the appropriate choice. Housing is a great example, where part of the reason housing is expensive is due to zoning laws being so weird and restrictive it's hard to build large-scale affordable housing. Liberalizing zoning can do straight good, and I recognize that. Of course, as the article points out, that's not an idea unique to them, there are voices on the left saying this, and I think it's relatively uncontroversial that deregulation is a good thing in many contexts. Of course the stereotype of a bunch of dumbass hypocritical liberals is stupid, like the alleged hypocrisy of allowing pot-smoking and disallowing cigarettes. Uh, there's clearly a false equivalency there. You smoke both, but cigarettes are also readily loaded with massive amounts of carcinogens. Pot, while not being good to smoke, doesn't have nearly the dramatic health effects. Also, branding AirBnB and Uber as "left" is really, really stupid in my view. I'm not sure though that I really see liberals advocating for endless regulation without deregulation, so I'm not sure how much I think the criticism really applies, but I guess it's enough to be considered substantive.

Oh, and of course, there's free speech/college campus hysteria.
2018-03-18, 4:03 PM #8236
A propos almost nothing, this passage from an article you posted squares with my experience of rural communities:

Quote:
and there is little of the city’s anonymity in which to retreat amid failure and scandal. Rural folk count on shame among intimates, not private guilt, to enforce morality.
former entrepreneur
2018-03-18, 4:30 PM #8237
National Review: Less impressed here. I believe this website was among the worst I read in just.. not having anything of value to say, no substantive critiques, or anything I thought was much worthwhile.

For one, you have like a quadrillion ****ing articles about down syndrome and abortion:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/down-syndrome-abortion-washington-post-column-flaws/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/down-syndrome-abortion-washington-post-column-morally-repugnant/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/down-syndrome-abortion-defense-socially-approved-monstrosity/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/the-real-down-syndrome-problem/

In these you'll find no moral philosophy. You'll find no sophisticated understanding of birth defects, disease, or the social costs of disability. You'll find really nothing but sanctimonious, smug conservative takes on the liberal conscious. I will say, the more I read conservative media the more I find the "smug" assertions really pointless, because Christ, some of these conservative articles are awash in very smug attitudes that are on par with any liberal smugness I've ever seen.

In any case, from one of the articles you get from the start:

Quote:
Iceland must be pleased that it is close to success in its program of genocide


Really, now? Conservatives hate it when you compared things to Nazism, but apparently comparing selective abortion to genocide is an obvious fact?

You also have Ben Shapiro *shudder* bringing up the Milgram experiment:

Quote:
According to Milgram’s experiment, two in three teachers shocked the learners all the way up to 450 volts, even as the actors begged for mercy; all of the teachers shocked the learners up to 300 volts. Milgram concluded, “Stark authority was pitted against the subjects’ strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects’ ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not.”

How much farther would the teachers have gone if they’d had a personal investment in pulling the switch?


Are we really talking about the effects of dislocated violence, and the role of authority in committing acts of violence? Am I really to expect that Ben Shapiro has deeply considered the consequences of this moral assertion, or is he merely using it as an ad hoc justification of his beliefs about abortion? Because as far as I can tell, Ben Shapiro happily advocates violence and force from a distance against people he's deemed to deserve it. Regardless of your views on the Israel-Palestine conflict, one can clearly see Ben Shapiro leans one way on the topic, and has no problem pushing theoretical buttons against the Palestinians in pretty extreme ways.

More to the point, these morally sanctimonious articles don't seem to reflect any deeper moral principles on the behalf of conservatives. I don't think there's any tenable way to want to both be stricter on crime and advocate for things like relocating populations based on ethnic and religious identity and be morally anti-abortion without holding onto some hypocritical moral views.

I'm not well versed in the topic because, well, I'm a dude, and don't have children, and have never been faced with the choice, and women's reproductive health is something I haven't studied closely, so I don't want to speak too strongly on the topic. But I will say from personal experience: people tend to pull lots of inspiration from people with disabilities in a morally repugnant way. It's why Stephen Hawking is overrated as a physicist: he's more famous because of the wheelchair than because of his work, as ******* and cynical as that sounds.

I worked in a group home for a few years. I worked with adults who have moderate to severe developmental disabilities over a range of diseases. Now, you see, when people with developmental disabilities are born to relatively well-off families, they can be supported, loved and cared for. But except in the rarest of cases, this ends. Eventually, the person is forced out into the world; something happens that forces them to find independence, often a parent's death, or other circumstances, usually related to poverty. And guess what? The real world, the non-Disney movie world, is incredibly cruel. People with developmental disabilities suffer disturbingly high rates of sexual, psychological and physical abuse. Developmentally disabled women are sexually abused at a very high rate, and after knowing enough people working in the industry, you hear enough stories of sexual abuse to realize the problem of predatory sexual assault is rampant in even the best of environments. Not to mention people with developmental disabilities make up a large portion of the homeless population. They have a hard time finding a stable life anywhere, and often go through life with only the most rudimentary of human relationships, never finding satisfactory relationships outside of family, or getting repeatedly pulled into abusive relationships.

Dealing with the adult developmentally disabled population was, at times, emotionally draining to the point where I felt the entire exercise was entirely pointless. So yeah, it's easy to put up pictures of happy babies, and get all morally sanctimonious. Stories like these are often painted in such a happy light, but very few people actually go out and deal with the nitty gritty, or understand the scope and scale of how developmental disability can affect a person's life. I'm not advocating anyone make the choice, but I would understand why, and I don't think this particular flavor of conservative outrage holds up to even the littlest scrutiny.

There's also this interesting take on the subject of disease. I thought this article was so incredibly stupid, so beyond the pale of basic thought that I literally laughed. Let's look at it and what it says:

Quote:
“We will also consider why and how definitions and standards of health have changed over time; why and how standards and adjudications of health vary according to gender, race, sexuality, class, and nationality; and how definitions of health affect the way we value certain bodies and ways of living,” the description continues. “Additionally, we will explore how knowledge about health is created; how environmental conditions, social location, politics, and economic conditions affect health; how various groups have fought for changes to health care practices and delivery; and how experiences of health and illness have been reported and represented.”

Now, to be fair, not all of this is crazy. It absolutely is true, for example, that issues such as “environmental conditions” can affect a person’s health, and that’s something worth studying. What’s not worth studying, however, is that ridiculous idea that a disease might somehow be a “subjective state.”

I can’t even believe I have to write this, but having a disease absolutely is an objective thing. Either you have it or you don’t, and whether or not you have it absolutely is determined by “objectively measured conditions.


This person is just wrong. They're not wrong, to say, for instance, that diagnosing a disease is objective, but they're wrong about defining disease. We define disease 100% purely through the lens of human meaning, nothing exists outside of that definition. Broken legs have no ontological meaning in themselves. There is no book of health and unhealth that hands down the commandment: "broken legs are unhealthy". We determine that broken legs are unhealthy: they're painful, they make it hard to act in ways we would prefer. Malignant cancer isn't bad as an essential quality, there is again no "objective book of health" that says people with malignant cancers are unhealthier because the cancer will shut down the normal functioning of their body, make them weaker, and will die sooner than they might have otherwise, we say that people with malignant cancers are unhealthier because the cancer will shut down the normal functioning of their body, make them weaker, and will die sooner than they might have otherwise.

Everything is rooted in subjective human values: the desire to be able to act, to feel good, to live a long time. We categorize diseases as measurable conditions that prevent these things, we define them. So a study of the history of how these are defined is totally valid and worth pursuing to those who are interested.

But, let's be real: the author is just mad that feminists are doing a thing, it wouldn't really matter what they studied. Oops, I'm not being charitable. Sorry, I just really thought that article was dumb.

You also have brilliant articles suggesting some high schoolers are dumb (holy ****, really?) and, you guessed it: university free speech hysteria!
2018-03-18, 4:55 PM #8238
Weekly Standard: some good, some bad.

I thought this was an insanely good article on Hillary Clinton's ****ty comments in India. Probably the best I've read. It gets close.. so close to a fundamental realization, to the biggest criticism of Hillary Clinton one can make. I don't know much about the author, but the feeling of this article is so there. Yeah.. Hillary Clinton does sound alot like Ayn Rand.. hmm.. what does that say about our politics?

I was disappointed though to find out the author appears to be center-left. I have a feeling people on the right wouldn't make the connection, because many of the probably like Ayn Rand anyway.

Another article on Clinton was a little sanctimonious, even though that outrage is somewhat understandable, but I wanted to comment on one line:

Quote:
What’s far more disturbing is that a great number of her fellow Democrats—perhaps a majority—will find nothing to disagree with in her latest remarks. In their minds, she spoke the simple truth.


This is probably true. But regarding her comments, I don't even think they're entirely false, red states are loser states and the resentment is palpable, it's why City Journal, in lieu of substance spends so much time attacking blue states. I would go so far as to even say red states have brought some of their problems on themselves, by allowing right propaganda to take over their regions. It's a victim blame, but I think some of that is warranted here: I feel red state Republicans need to understand their voting choices, their free actions are responsible for a good deal of their own suffering. But, the overwhelming part of their suffering is not their own fault, and they aren't at fault for much of the dumb things they believe.

But yeah, the article called Hillary Clinton "corrupt". I don't think corrupt is the right word for her, and feeds into the Trump memes about her in ways that I'm not a fan of.

This article I thought was good though. There is a certain sort of liberal who can go to far in claiming sexual assault victims should effectively always be trusted, and often specific cases are really icky to work through. And people should be willing to accept the judgment of a jury whose reasoning appears sensible and evidence-driven, such as the case referred to in the article. In other words, I do think there are times in which the conservative pushback against broadening the power of sexual assault accusers has a purpose, but I also really really really don't want to give ground to a certain sort of denier "sexual assaults don't actually happen" people, who are pretty common among nerdy young men.
2018-03-18, 5:07 PM #8239
WSJ: seems alright. It didn't strike me as particularly conservative, it struck me as being so boring I had a hard time finding much to comment on.

There are articles like this, which, I mean, I didn't really find much objectional to it. I'm a bit skeptical that the principal reason for college becoming more expensive is simply increased enrollment, I'd suspect that simple supply-demand explanation is worth checking out, but it's plausible enough to take at face value as I'm burning time really hard on this. But it's a pretty good article. Don't see it as having a lean, but there is one thing I find interesting: The GOP tax plan is estimated to cost $1.5 trillion. The current amount of standing student loan debt is $1.48 trillion. So if people are going to cry that this debt is unaffordable.. well, it seems to line up to a devastating critique of Republican tax "policy", if the choice is giving rich people money or alleviating student loan debt.

There's also this, which I thought was alright. It's nothing we haven't already discussed here to death, but it's a pretty good take on the rise of populism and what it means.

We also have a pretty objective analysis of the role of urbanization in politics. Hard to say much again.

I don't know, lol, WSJ seemed to just be the most encyclopedic thing I've ever analyzed in this way. I can't come up with much to say but "these seem like intellectually respectable ideas." I don't see it as conservative leaning though.
2018-03-18, 5:23 PM #8240
I don't think I have commentary on Commentary because it's paywalled and I don't have the time to get around it. I found a few of the articles sympathetic and well-written, offering some decent justifications. I felt like most of what I saw and read were petty cultural grievances, waxing endlessly about college culture, or just airheaded attacks on "liberal" things. I didn't see much that I would brand as an advancement of a real conservative idea, a conservative plan.

When I look at Vox, I see a bunch that isn't too far off from the kind of petty stuff on conservative sites, but I also see things like this. This discussion on climate change is very good: it's a great explanation, you can learn from it, and it discusses current policies and plans to avoid climate change. This is what an advancement of an idea looks like! The statement of a problem, a justfication, and the formulation of a solution, all in one article, clear and cogent. I don't think I saw anything on a conservative-leaning journal that could compare with this single article on Vox, and I think that says alot about why my bias is so strong on these issues.

I really don't feel it's about the assumptions and framework in this case. It's about the actual content of the articles. Conservatives don't have positive solutions or policy plans as far as I can see, it's all just complaints about what are, in my opinion, very petty issues. Whereas the liberal media seems to have at least something going on in that regard.
123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404142434445464748495051525354555657585960616263646566676869707172737475767778798081828384858687888990919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126127128129130131132133134135136137138139140141142143144145146147148149150151152153154155156157158159160161162163164165166167168169170171172173174175176177178179180181182183184185186187188189190191192193194195196197198199200201202203204205206207208209210211212213214215216217218219220221222223224225226227228229230231232233234235236237238239240241242243244245246247248249250251252253254255256257258259260261262263264265266267268269270271272273274275276277278279280281282283284285286287288289290291292293294295296297298299300301302303304305306307308309310311312313314315316317318319320321322323324325326327328329330331332333334335336337338339340341342343344345346347348349350351352353354355356357358359360361362363364365366367368369370371372373374375376377378379380381382383384385386387388389390391392393394395396397398399400401

↑ Up to the top!