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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-08-26, 7:19 PM #3881
Originally posted by Jon`C:
No, the president cannot pardon himself for taking a title of royalty and still keep his job


Perhaps not for something that is explicitly forbidden by the constitution, but there are plenty of other crimes he's likely to be culpable of.
2017-08-26, 7:23 PM #3882
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Oh, Obama had been awful on this NSA unwarranted dragnet stuff. But it was after 9/11 that Cheney pushed for warrentless wiretapping so hard that even the NSA lawyers balked. From a 2006 New York Times article:



https://www.truthdig.com/articles/cheney-reportedly-pushed-nsa-to-spy-domestically/


The NSA lawyers balked.
2017-08-26, 7:23 PM #3883
Originally posted by Reid:
They hate Trump because he makes them look bad. Don't pretend they actually give a **** about Arpaio.


He may not care a whole lot. But he has standards of what constitutes decent behavior like anybody else.

If you want to level this charge about just caring about perceptions, you may as well accuse any politician who doesn't have too many principles. As far as I know, Paul Ryan cares about the rule of law: he's an objectivist libertarian, not a white supremacist.
2017-08-26, 7:24 PM #3884
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The NSA lawyers balked.


As it turns out, the NSA probably did exactly what Cheney wanted, even after an illegal program was "shut down".

Originally posted by Wikipedia:
Following public criticism that the development and deployment of this technology could potentially lead to a mass surveillance system, the IAO was defunded by Congress in 2003. However, several IAO projects continued to be funded and merely run under different names, as revealed by Edward Snowden during the course of the 2013 mass surveillance disclosures.[5][6][9][10][11][12]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office
2017-08-26, 7:33 PM #3885
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Really? You sure?

Er, don't forget Operation Desert Fox. You're really underestimating how vindictive the US government is, in a totally non-partisan way. They were itching for a fight in Iraq for a long time. This was in no small part fueled by Saddam Hussein's own actions to make Iraq look like it had a nuclear program, even though it didn't. The US does not tolerate even the appearance of strength.

Ah, I remember when it was called "enhanced interrogation techniques".

I don't believe it. The CIA recommended this stuff, it was scientific - in a perverse way, but still methodical. The Democrats aren't exactly famous for declining the advice of the bureaucrats. Obama sure didn't do it, he even worked to block the report about CIA torture.

Republicans had a majority government, had already drafted the bill before the attack ever happened, and it would have been politically untenable not to sign it. Word. For. Word.



NSA programs started a long time ago. Obama did nothing to stop them, and tried to black bag the guy who leaked evidence that they even existed.


This is actually a quite interesting post to think about, because it suggests the uncomfortable notion that the white house really acts on the behest of a non-partisan military-industrial complex that doesn't really change between administrations. And you could be totally right about Gore not being materially different tha Bush, which would mean that a lot of anger displayed by Americans in the years following 9/11 was actually misplaced.

Still, the suggestion that Iraq was independent of Bush would be sure to raise some eyebrows.
2017-08-26, 7:35 PM #3886
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm an unabashed socialist and you think I'd be using conservative rhetoric? I made my comment because you quoted Shareblue, which is a neoliberal Clintonism rag.


Then you are not a Democrat. I don't see anything wrong with quoting shareblue if you believe the Dems are correct on this issue.
2017-08-26, 7:38 PM #3887
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Then you are not a Democrat. I don't see anything wrong with quoting shareblue if you believe the Dems are correct on this issue.


^

It would be a good idea for more socialists and other leftists to figure this out. The DNC is your greatest enemy.
2017-08-26, 7:46 PM #3888
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Then you are not a Democrat. I don't see anything wrong with quoting shareblue if you believe the Dems are correct on this issue.


You're right, I'm not.
2017-08-26, 7:50 PM #3889
Originally posted by Reid:
You're right, I'm not.


former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 7:52 PM #3890
Originally posted by Eversor:


?
2017-08-26, 7:53 PM #3891
I don't even know. lol

YEE-AHH!!
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 7:58 PM #3892
Originally posted by Eversor:


So I finally got to watching this, and looking at the Chomsky quote, the Chomsky quote is clearly shedding context to try and smear left-wingers, it's just Twitter idiocy.

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Right wingers can use left wing rhetoric at times for their own end? So what? Democrats are ****ty, just because Trump has holes in his brain doesn't mean I have to rally behind their banner and start repeating Democrat propaganda.
2017-08-26, 7:59 PM #3893
I am actually of the opinion that the two party system is the single greatest impediment to a proper socialist party. There's just not enough room for political parties that present new ideas rather than participate in existing partisan warfare. So in a way the Alex Jones style conspiratorial fatalism about the game being rigged in favor of the establishment appears kinda true.
2017-08-26, 8:06 PM #3894
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I am actually of the opinion that the two party system is the single greatest impediment to a proper socialist party. There's just not enough room for political parties that present new ideas rather than participate in existing partisan warfare. So in a way the Alex Jones style conspiratorial fatalism about the game being rigged in favor of the establishment appears kinda true.


Much of this #NeverTrump and decorum b.s. is exactly that, it's just partisan warfare. When people's biggest complaint about everything going on is that Trump lacks decorum, then we have a serious problem in that people are being successfully distracted from policy, and like, **** that actually matters.

Though don't expect anything good. Realistically you should expect nothing but the U.S. to keep sliding in power and a nonstop barrage of fascist ex-middle class chuds voting for anyone who can promise them anything. What you should be really afraid of is some moron starting a war with a nuclear power.
2017-08-26, 8:11 PM #3895
Partisan warfare often dresses itself up as a question of decency. Partisans always want their Joseph Welch moment. Yes, Trump is a classless idiot who only knows how to "make deals" but that is irrelevant. Whether he is in office really comes down to whether you want taxpayer money to go to clean ketchup stains off the carpet of the oval office. The political situation is far more ****ed up than just Trump.
2017-08-26, 8:12 PM #3896
"This is no longer about policy sir. This is about human decency." says the Democrat who refuses to take single payer seriously and doesn't resist Paul Ryan's agenda.
2017-08-26, 8:16 PM #3897
Originally posted by Reid:
So I finally got to watching this, and looking at the Chomsky quote, the Chomsky quote is clearly shedding context to try and smear left-wingers, it's just Twitter idiocy.

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Right wingers can use left wing rhetoric at times for their own end? So what? Democrats are ****ty, just because Trump has holes in his brain doesn't mean I have to rally behind their banner and start repeating Democrat propaganda.


You said this:

Originally posted by Reid:
I'm an unabashed socialist and you think I'd be using conservative rhetoric?


By posting the video, I was only pointing out that being a leftist/socialist doesn't mean you can't make arguments that akin l to arguments being made by those on the right (especially the populist right). Leftists are getting in bed with some on the right because of a perceived alignment of interests. Leftists who don't have a foothold in the Democrat party have an interest in maligning establishment Democrats. In doing so, some have actually bolstered Trump's narrative that the Democrats have fabricated the Russia stories because they're sore losers after Trump defeated Hillary and are trying to conceal their complete lack of direction. Presumably they're doing this because they believe that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. But in doing so they're turning a blind eye to many of Trump's shortcomings. And anti-elite, anti-establishment, populist conservatives have an interest in attacking both the Democratic and the Republican party (for obvious reasons), but they're always cynical so it doesn't require as much explaining why they'd embrace allies on the far left.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 8:21 PM #3898
Originally posted by Eversor:
By posting the video, I was only pointing out that being a leftist/socialist doesn't mean you can't make arguments that akin l to arguments being made by those on the right (especially the populist right). Leftists are getting in bed with some on the right because of a perceived alignment of interests. Leftists who don't have a foothold in the Democrat party have an interest in maligning establishment Democrats. In doing so, some have actually bolstered Trump's narrative that the Democrats have fabricated the Russia stories because they're sore losers after Trump defeated Hillary and are trying to conceal their complete lack of direction. Presumably they're doing this because they believe that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. And anti-elite, anti-establishment, populist conservatives have an interest in attacking both the Democratic and the Republican party.


So what?
2017-08-26, 8:22 PM #3899
Originally posted by Reid:
So what?


*yawn*
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 8:24 PM #3900
What point are you really making?
2017-08-26, 8:26 PM #3901
Quote:
Much of this #NeverTrump and decorum b.s. is exactly that, it's just partisan warfare.


Hate the game, not the player. We have a two party system as of now, and those who mock the partisans who try to make do with the current system with vigor on the side that is more correct (the Democrats) end up playing into the even worse, opposite partisan side. At best, political criticism of the Democrats ought (in my mind) to be restricted to instances of them sacrificing larger things that are at stake, like the institutions of democracy itself and autonomy of the people to self-govern without ceding this right to the "deep state"

But make no mistake that there are those on the right who will be all too eager to eat this kind of "introspection" right up for far worse partisan purposes. Trump is in office now, and he needs to be dealt with by all ethical means necessary. It may not be glorious work, and it may feel dirty, but the propaganda war absolutely is worth winning if it means nixing the political efficacy of the current government.

That all said, you also have to consider the kind of thing that Julian Assange has been saying to justify his anti-DNC tactics: that the United States military was far too dangerous to the rest of the world to allow somebody like Clinton to come to power.
2017-08-26, 8:27 PM #3902
Originally posted by Reid:
What point are you really making?


I still haven't finished that last, gaping yawn.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 8:29 PM #3903
Personally, I don't at all see the two party system being acknowledged as the source of this problem, and I honestly think that without an overhaul, all this "introspection" doesn't lead to a viable socialist party (and probably plays into the hands of conservatives).
2017-08-26, 8:30 PM #3904
That said, there's a good chance that Trump will lose the next election no matter how hard the left criticises the DNC, in which case I say, go for it.
2017-08-26, 8:31 PM #3905
Originally posted by Eversor:
I still haven't finished that last, gaping yawn.


It just sounds like you're suggesting we should all rally under the Democrat banner and not criticize them because reasons.
2017-08-26, 8:36 PM #3906
Originally posted by Reid:
It just sounds like you're suggesting we should all rally under the Democrat banner and not criticize them because reasons.


No I'm not. I'm saying you shouldn't make lazy bull**** arguments and align yourself with f***heads.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 8:37 PM #3907
Originally posted by Eversor:
No I'm not. I'm saying you shouldn't make lazy bull**** arguments and align yourself with f***heads.


Okay, you can always just say that instead of trying to force a bunch of stupid-ass memes.
2017-08-26, 8:38 PM #3908
I think criticising Democrats is fine.

I also think that going on Tucker's Fox News show is pretty darn irresponsible, given how its conservative audience will exploit it to rationalize their dangerous narrative that chanting "deep state!" gives then free reign to violate the rule of law. (I sense that greenwald is interested in promoting himself and his narrow crusade against the CIA and NSA.)

Let's not forget that the likes of Mark Levin believe in a vastly more powerful executive branch. For example, he justifies the pardoning of Arpaio most likely because he thinks that the executive branch can basically do whatever it wants to enforce our borders and doesn't have to pay attention to institutional rules and procedures, that Congress shouldn't be able to restrict it in this capacity, etc.
2017-08-26, 8:39 PM #3909
Originally posted by Reid:
Okay, you can always just say that instead of trying to force a bunch of stupid-ass memes.


You claimed to not know who Tucker Carlson is as if it was my problem. It was definitely your problem. Now you know. You're welcome.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 8:43 PM #3910
For future reference: Tucker Carlson is basically the National Enquirer of conservative media. His website, the daily caller, peddles the most blatently conspiratorial stories as news, which get picked up by drudge and Google news and make it to, for example, Trump's own Twitter feed.
2017-08-26, 8:48 PM #3911
Originally posted by Eversor:
You claimed to not know who Tucker Carlson is as if it was my problem. It was definitely your problem. Now you know. You're welcome.


Just because some guy uses the same rhetoric doesn't mean it's false. You're practically accusing me of aligning with Tucker Carlson.
2017-08-26, 8:54 PM #3912
Originally posted by Reid:
Just because some guy uses the same rhetoric doesn't mean it's false. You're practically accusing me of aligning with Tucker Carlson.


Yes. I wouldn't deny that. It's ok, though. He's not Hitler. There are worse people you could be compared to.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 9:17 PM #3913
We can wring hands about Trump having holes in his brain, etc., and to curse ourselves for ever assuming he was some kind of mastermind, when the simpler explanation of irrational emotion turned out to be more perceptive. But don't forget that he is cognitively functional enough to create a constitutional crisis.

You don't have to take ShareBlue's word for it. Trump's pardon of Joe Arpaio is about more than just back slapping an early supporter of his campaign and fellow racist.

Quote:
This morning, I received an email from an old friend — one of the country’s top trial lawyers: “I have underestimated Trump. He knows what is coming, including a variety of criminal charges and other impeachable offenses. He is not just arousing his base to anger but to arms, some of them. There is no other way to explain the transgender ban, the Arpaio pardon, his Charlottesville remarks…

“I would think he will pardon himself, family members, Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort, among others, and if he is angry enough, Mrs. O’Leary, who, you must admit, got kind of a raw deal.” [Note: Myth has it that one Kate O’Leary’s cow kicked over a lantern in the barn and started the Great Chicago Fire of l871. She was widely blamed but never charged.]

And the following came from the journalist and author Charles Kaiser. His books include Gay Metropolis, 1968 in America, and The Cost of Courage, a riveting account of one family that joined the French resistance against the Nazi occupation.

— Bill Moyers


Quote:
Donald Trump’s pardon of Sheriff Joe Arpaio marks the real beginning of the coming constitutional crisis in America.

Trump started tweeting trial balloons about this a month ago — “all agree the US president has the complete power to pardon” — and he has even asserted the unlitigated idea that he can pardon himself. But what he did yesterday puts his presidency on a whole new plane: a Category 5 political hurricane. By pardoning a man convicted of criminal contempt for direct violation of a federal order, Trump is now flaunting his eagerness to overturn the rule of law in America.

"While all agree the U. S. President has the complete power to pardon, why think of that when only crime so far is LEAKS against us.FAKE NEWS"

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 22, 2017

I have never seen anyone who has acted more obviously guilty than Donald Trump has almost every single day since he became president. From his tête-à-tête with James Comey, in which he asked the FBI director to end his investigation of Michael Flynn, to his firing of the same man when he failed to heed that warning, to his newly-reported phone call to Senator Thom Tillis (R-NC) to complain about a bill that would protect special counsel Robert Mueller’s independence, the president has engaged in one blatant attempt to obstruct justice after another.

Here is the most logical way to view his pardon of Sheriff Arpaio: It is the latest and gravest step he has taken in his continuing efforts to undermine the rule of law. Obviously Trump delighted in fueling the racism of Arpaio’s supporters by pardoning this convicted criminal — he made that clear earlier this week during his repellent speech in Phoenix. But I am certain that is not the main reason for this heinous act.

For many weeks, Washington has been swirling with rumors that Mueller already has secured the cooperation of Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort in his investigation of the president. And Trump undoubtedly is more vulnerable to the testimony of these two men than he is to that of any other players in this fearful drama. Therefore, Trump must feel compelled to send this message through Arpaio’s pardon: The president is eager and willing to do the same thing for anyone who might be pressured into testifying against him.

I have a written a book about France under fascism, and what we are now experiencing is exactly what incipient fascism looks like. The combination of Trump’s relentless assaults on the free press, his open encouragement of Nazis — which is the only honest description of his initial refusal to condemn them — and now a pardon without even pretending to go through the normal channels of the Justice Department: These are all the acts of man who is blatantly defying his sacred pledge to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Like the men and women of Vichy France who began their collaboration with the Nazis seventy-seven years ago, from now on, every senator and House member of either party who continues to remain silent about this president’s unconstitutional acts is directly complicit in the high crimes and misdemeanors of Donald Trump.

I know very serious students of American justice who already were convinced last night that the pardon of Arpaio has fatally undermined Robert Mueller’s investigation by killing the incentive for anyone to testify against this president. Personally, I am not yet that pessimistic. I still believe that any pardon of Flynn or Manafort or Jared Kushner will produce a large enough firestorm to end Donald Trump’s presidency, either through impeachment or the 25th Amendment to the Constitution, which would allow his removal by a majority vote of his cabinet.

But if there is a majority of Republican senators and House members who wish to avoid a full-blown constitutional crisis worse than anything we have seen since the secession of the Confederate states, they must speak loudly and act clearly right now. They must immediately pass the bill introduced by Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware and Republican Senator Tillis of North Carolina that would shore up the independence of the special prosecutor, and they must pass it with veto-proof majorities.

Senator Lindsay Graham already has said that the firing of Attorney General Jeff Sessions would mean the beginning of the end of Trump’s presidency. It is long past time for all of Graham’s colleagues in both houses to declare that the same thing will be true if the president dares to repeat the horrific abuse of his pardon power that we witnessed last night. Otherwise, America is destined for an era of violence and darkness unlike any we have ever witnessed since the end of the Civil War, one hundred and fifty-two years ago.
2017-08-26, 9:20 PM #3914
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yes. I wouldn't deny that. It's ok, though. He's not Hitler. There are worse people you could be compared to.


It's a dumb comparison.
2017-08-26, 9:24 PM #3915
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
We can wring hands about Trump having holes in his brain, etc., and to curse ourselves for ever assuming he was some kind of mastermind, when the simpler explanation of irrational emotion turned out to be more perceptive. But don't forget that he is cognitively functional enough to create a constitutional crisis.

You don't have to take ShareBlue's word for it. Trump's pardon of Joe Arpaio is about more than just back slapping an early supporter of his campaign and fellow racist.


I'm more or less saying that as a joke, I agree with what you're literally saying.
2017-08-26, 9:26 PM #3916
Originally posted by Reid:
It's a dumb comparison.


No it's not. You make arguments that are similar to Tucker Carlson's. It's ok. At least Tucker is entertaining.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 9:32 PM #3917
YOU LIE
2017-08-26, 9:37 PM #3918
Originally posted by Eversor:
No it's not. You make arguments that are similar to Tucker Carlson's. It's ok. At least Tucker is entertaining.


I mean, you're a debate pedant, right? Like logical jiu jitsu and all that? Just go browse the Wikipedia page of fallacies until you find the one that fits, and then fill in the blanks. I'm too lazy.
2017-08-26, 9:41 PM #3919
Originally posted by Reid:
I mean, you're a debate pedant, right? Like logical jiu jitsu and all that? Just go browse the Wikipedia page of fallacies until you find the one that fits, and then fill in the blanks. I'm too lazy.


Well that's not very entertaining but I never said that everything you say is like what Tucker Carlson says.
former entrepreneur
2017-08-26, 9:45 PM #3920


Hat tip: /pol
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