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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-06-08, 2:18 PM #2441
Originally posted by Eversor:
He's old and senile. That explain his confused line of questioning better than anything else.


You can be old and senile without being a partisan hack.

It's obvious in my mind he was making a visibly feeble attempt to make a false equivocation. The fact that he is acting senile is simply the reason it was obvious to all of us, because he did it so poorly. But Republicans pull this kind of rhetorical stunt all the time in a slicker package.

And when I said that somebody was twisting his arm, I was talking about Mitch McConnell (or whoever it is that keeps Republican senators in line).
2017-06-08, 2:21 PM #2442
Or I dunno, maybe McCain really is just an ass-hat who pretends to be a statesman from time to time because it makes him look good.
2017-06-08, 2:25 PM #2443
It's too bad McCain can't divorce his brain and marry one that's not handicapped.
2017-06-08, 4:38 PM #2444
Originally posted by Jon`C:
It's too bad McCain can't divorce his brain and marry one that's not handicapped.


DAMN[/b]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-06-08, 5:40 PM #2445
Looks like Trump had some trouble finding a law firm that would be willing to represent him:

Quote:
“The concerns were, ‘The guy won’t pay and he won’t listen,’” said one lawyer close to the White House who is familiar with some of the discussions between the firms and the administration, as well as deliberations within the firms themselves.


Note: I was going to link to the original source of this quote, but because it's a Yahoo News article, it is total and complete ****e and autoplays some stupid slideshow with music, so I will spare all of you the obtrusive and rude design decisions of that site by quoting it in full for reference.

Quote:
Four top law firms turned down requests to represent Trump
Michael Isikoff
Chief Investigative Correspondent
Yahoo NewsJune 6, 2017

Top lawyers with at least four major law firms rebuffed White House overtures to represent President Trump in the Russia investigations, in part over concerns that the president would be unwilling to listen to their advice, according to five sources familiar with discussions about the matter.

The unwillingness of some of the country’s most prestigious attorneys and their law firms to represent Trump has complicated the administration’s efforts to mount a coherent defense strategy to deal with probes being conducted by four congressional committees as well as Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller.

The president’s chief lawyer now in charge of the case is Marc E. Kasowitz, a tough New York civil litigator who for years has aggressively represented Trump in multiple business and public relations disputes — often with threats of countersuits and menacing public statements — but who has little experience dealing with complex congressional and Justice Department investigations that are inevitably influenced by media coverage and public opinion.

Before Kasowitz was retained, however, some of the biggest law firms and their best-known attorneys turned down overtures when they were sounded out by White House officials to see if they would be willing to represent the president, the sources said.
President Trump.
View photos
President Trump (Photo: Joshua Roberts/Reuters)

Among them, sources said, were some of the most high-profile names in the legal profession, including Brendan Sullivan of Williams & Connolly; Ted Olson of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher; Paul Clement and Mark Filip of Kirkland & Ellis; and Robert Giuffra of Sullivan & Cromwell.

The lawyers and their firms cited a variety of factors in choosing not to take on the president as a client. Some, like Brendan Sullivan, said they had upcoming trials or existing commitments that would make it impossible for them to devote the necessary time and resources to Trump’s defense.

Others mentioned potential conflicts with clients of their firms, such as financial institutions that have already received subpoenas relating to potential money-laundering issues that are part of the investigation.

But a consistent theme, the sources said, was the concern about whether the president would accept the advice of his lawyers and refrain from public statements and tweets that have consistently undercut his position.

“The concerns were, ‘The guy won’t pay and he won’t listen,’” said one lawyer close to the White House who is familiar with some of the discussions between the firms and the administration, as well as deliberations within the firms themselves.
President Trump in the Oval Office.
View photos
President Trump in the Oval Office. (Photo: Jonathan Ernst/Reuters)

Other factors, the lawyer said, were that it would “kill recruitment” for the firms to be publicly associated with representing the polarizing president and jeopardize the firms’ relationships with other clients.

Another lawyer briefed on some of the discussions agreed that the firms were worried about the reputational risk of representing the president. One issue that arose, this lawyer said, was “Do I want to be associated with this president and his policies?” In addition, the lawyer said, there were concerns that if they took on the case, “Who’s in charge?” and “Would he listen?”

None of the lawyers who turned down the White House overtures responded to requests for comment by Yahoo News.

The White House began discreetly reaching out to assemble an outside legal team several weeks ago, after the public uproar over the firing of FBI Director James Comey — who is due to testify before the Senate intelligence committee on Thursday — followed by the appointment of Mueller as Justice Department special counsel.

Among those who began calling around on the president’s behalf were White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, senior counselor Kellyanne Conway and White House counsel Don McGahn. In some cases, the discussions led to meetings or phone calls between the lawyers who were approached and the president himself.

Some of the sources who spoke to Yahoo News said the top lawyers and the four firms that rejected the overtures were not exhaustive of the list of firms approached by the White House. Among those who also were reportedly approached were Reid Weingarten of Steptoe & Johnson and A.B. Culvahouse Jr. of O’Melveny & Myers.

The hiring of Kasowitz has been criticized by some who view the New York lawyer as a pit-bull litigator who lacks the finesse to represent the president in probes that involve the public arena. Among the cases on which he has represented Trump over the years were lawsuits involving Trump University and divorce proceedings.

But one of the sources said that Kasowitz has been reaching out to Washington legal veterans to solicit ideas and suggestions about how to craft an overall defense strategy, including how and when to publicly release information that might be helpful to the president’s defense, the source said.
2017-06-09, 2:40 AM #2446
House Republicans killed Dodd Frank, and gutted some consumer rights bureau.
2017-06-09, 2:50 AM #2447
There's hope yet, but clearly this is going in a bad direction:

Quote:
“There is zero chance that the Choice Act survives” in its current form in the Senate, said Matthew Dyckman, a lawyer in the financial services practice at Goodwin.


http://nytimes.com/2017/06/08/business/dealbook/house-financial-regulations-dodd-frank.html?referer=https://news.google.com
2017-06-09, 6:48 PM #2448
I may have read wrong, but didn't Comey basically say there was no collusion between Trump campaign and Russia? If that's so, I'm ****ing pissed at the Democrats for going this far on something they probably knew was not true months ago. I know the Republicans do it all the time, but I can't support either group if they both behave equally as bad.
Nothing to see here, move along.
2017-06-09, 7:36 PM #2449
Fake news
2017-06-09, 8:26 PM #2450
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
I may have read wrong, but didn't Comey basically say there was no collusion between Trump campaign and Russia? If that's so, I'm ****ing pissed at the Democrats for going this far on something they probably knew was not true months ago. I know the Republicans do it all the time, but I can't support either group if they both behave equally as bad.


Where did you read that? I watched the testimony and Comey definitely said no such thing in it.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2017-06-09, 10:56 PM #2451
Didn't he say the NYT article was not true? Aren't they the ones who broke the Russian - Trump Campaign collusion? I apologize if I'm mistaken, there is just way too much crap to keep track of anymore. I'm completely disillusioned with my country, reality and just about everything.
Nothing to see here, move along.
2017-06-09, 11:16 PM #2452
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
I'm completely disillusioned with my country, reality and just about everything.


I wouldn't blame you for feeling despair, but you should take heart that, however much damage Trump is doing, he is heavily dependent on dark side powers that always become self-destructive in the long run.

I mean, the guy just said he would tesitfy under oath, which as Bill Maher said on his show tonight, was possibly one of the dumbest things he's said in a long history of dumbness.
2017-06-10, 12:11 AM #2453
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Didn't he say the NYT article was not true? Aren't they the ones who broke the Russian - Trump Campaign collusion? I apologize if I'm mistaken, there is just way too much crap to keep track of anymore. I'm completely disillusioned with my country, reality and just about everything.


Comey didn't say that. He's said the FBI can't invalidate leaked classified information, because by doing so it would implicitly validate as true the information that it doesn't explicitly repudiate.

Comey neither affirmed nor denied that Trump colluded with Russia. It's true that he said that he told Trump three times that Trump wasn't personally under investigation. But that doesn't rule out collusion. As he said, others in the FBI leadership thought it was unwise to tell Trump he wasn't under investigation, because, while it was true in some literal sense because the FBI didn't have a file on him personally, the FBI was still investigating his campaign, and Trump is obviously part of that investigation.

So, TL;DR:, Trump isn't exonerate yet: nothing Comey said in his testimony is incompatible with the proposition that the FBI has evidence of collusion. We just have to wait and find out.

And that's leaving aside the potential charge of obstruction of justice.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-10, 12:17 AM #2454
I'm thoroughly annoyed by Adam Schiff. His talking about confidential info without revealing any of its content (i.e., claiming he has non-circumstantial evidence of collusion, while claiming he's unable to talk about what that evidence is because it's confidential) has made the government -- and especially him -- seem more untrustworthy, not less, in my eyes. It's raised expectations too high.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-10, 12:26 AM #2455
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Didn't he say the NYT article was not true? Aren't they the ones who broke the Russian - Trump Campaign collusion? I apologize if I'm mistaken, there is just way too much crap to keep track of anymore. I'm completely disillusioned with my country, reality and just about everything.


Let's be clear on one thing.

The NYT article was about Russian attempts to recruit Trump campaign members. The four sources have repeatedly confirmed that the Russians have been caught trying to do it, and it's been independently confirmed by other outlets. So, yeah, the NYT article is basically confirmed, regardless of whatever Comey says. The open question isn't whether the Russians were trying to recruit Trump campaign members, because they absolutely were; it's whether or not the Russians succeeded.

Comey said this, about the article:

Quote:
RISCH: OK. So — so, again, so the American people can understand this, that report by the New York Times was not true. Is that a fair statement?

COMEY: In — in the main, it was not true. And, again, all of you know this, maybe the American people don’t. The challenge — and I’m not picking on reporters about writing stories about classified information, is that people talking about it often don’t really know what’s going on.


This can mean basically anything. Is he concerned that they got specific details of the intelligence operation wrong? Were the conclusions wrong? We don't know, because Comey didn't say.

What we do know is that Comey, by admission, was surprised and angered by the article. He had to seek out members of the intelligence community because he didn't know whether the NSA was watching Trump - in other words, he didn't really know what's going on either, and his assertion that the story is false is basically hearsay.

Quote:
RISCH: ... OK.

On — I remember, you — you talked with us shortly after February 14th, when the New York Times wrote an article that suggested that the Trump campaign was colluding with the Russians. You remember reading that article when it first came out?

COMEY: I do. It was about allegedly extensive electronic surveillance...

RISCH: Correct.

(CROSSTALK)

COMEY: ... communications. Yes, sir.

RISCH: And — and that upset you to the point where you actually went out and surveyed the intelligence community to see whether — whether you were missing something in that. Is that correct?

COMEY: That’s correct. I want to be careful in open setting. But...

RISCH: I — I’m — I’m not going to any further than that with it.

COMEY: OK.


More importantly, Comey previously offered the senate a vigorous denial of the entire story:

Quote:
RISCH: So thank you.

In addition to that, after that, you sought out both Republican and Democrat senators to tell them that, hey, I don’t know where this is coming from, but this is not the — this is not factual. Do you recall that?

COMEY: Yes.


Now, in case you aren't aware of the optics here, Comey has effectively claimed that President Trump was trying to extort him. He's claimed that Trump started grooming him well before the above report to the senate. That means Comey's account is fixed. I'll enumerate the three possible scenarios to make this point clear:

Comey was being honest in February, and honest yesterday. He sincerely believes the NYT article is wrong (for unspecified reasons) and his account doesn't change.

Comey was lying in February to protect his new boss. If he changes his account now, people will either figure out his earlier perjury, or they'll think he's perjuring himself today in retaliation against Trump. Either way, he's screwed - so his account doesn't change.

Comey was being honest in February, and since received new information showing that the NYT story is accurate. If he changes his account now, people will either think Trump's extortion worked, or they'll think he's lying in retaliation against Trump. Like the previous scenario, there's no winning either way - so his account doesn't change.

In other words, Comey affirming that the NYT story is false during the hearing doesn't mean anything more than Comey's earlier claim.

It also doesn't matter. You know, they'll probably never find evidence that the Trump campaign collided with Russian intelligence. What they do have, though, is a televised confession that Trump fired Comey in order to obstruct the FBI's investigation. Which is, like, a crime? So, yeah.
2017-06-10, 12:35 AM #2456
It's also important to remember that the NSA is conducting dragnet surveillance of all international calls. So, yes, they'd absolutely know whether the Trump campaign had phone conversations with Russian agents, without anything resembling targeted surveillance.
2017-06-10, 12:09 PM #2457
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Didn't he say the NYT article was not true? Aren't they the ones who broke the Russian - Trump Campaign collusion? I apologize if I'm mistaken, there is just way too much crap to keep track of anymore. I'm completely disillusioned with my country, reality and just about everything.


Just because they got the details wrong doesn't mean there isn't something going on. For all we know, it could be worse. Or it could be strong evidence of something less sensational but still wrong and actionable.
2017-06-10, 2:45 PM #2458
Nuclear codes....

2017-06-11, 7:53 AM #2459
That belongs in the language thread!
former entrepreneur
2017-06-11, 12:21 PM #2460
I'm... not so sure.
2017-06-11, 5:02 PM #2461
I get what you're saying Jon'C, but I have a hard time believing that the collusion could have gone this far without anyone leaking anything to the press. How many traitors are int the Government? I'm starting to think it was a nothing burger that Democrats capitalized upon, in part to sabotage Trump and the Republicans and in part to get back at Republicans for doing the same crap for the last 8 years. This might hurt Democrats badly as people will blame them if Trump isn't impeached or for confirming Republican accusations.
Nothing to see here, move along.
2017-06-11, 5:21 PM #2462
Can we distinguish between committing a crime, and getting caught? As David Frum has been saying for months about this administration, there are many secrets but few mysteries.

Sure, Trump might not go to prison, and plenty of his supporters will celebrate if he squeeks by.

On the other hand, the exact description applies as well to the case of O.J. Simpson.

And don't they both have the same kind of detestible smirk, that you just know that Trump's memoirs are going to be so full of gloating at having gotten away with murder (so to speak), that he might as well title the book "If I Did It"?
2017-06-11, 5:28 PM #2463
The Art of the Russian Deal
2017-06-11, 6:37 PM #2464
...the operative word there being "Russian".

When somebody offers you a "Russian deal", don't just consult your accountant and your lawyer, but your bodyguard too.
2017-06-11, 10:17 PM #2465
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
I get what you're saying Jon'C, but I have a hard time believing that the collusion could have gone this far without anyone leaking anything to the press. How many traitors are int the Government? I'm starting to think it was a nothing burger that Democrats capitalized upon, in part to sabotage Trump and the Republicans and in part to get back at Republicans for doing the same crap for the last 8 years. This might hurt Democrats badly as people will blame them if Trump isn't impeached or for confirming Republican accusations.


I don't think you do get what I'm saying, actually.

Chant the following mantra until you achieve enlightenment:

"You do not have to be guilty of a crime in order to obstruct the investigation."
2017-06-12, 2:45 AM #2466
I'm skeptical that Trump will be removed from office even if he get snagged with obstruction of justice. Clinton was hit with perjury and obstruction of justice charges, and he was impeached for them. But there weren't enough votes in the senate to lead to his removal from office, because the senate was majority Democrat and they voted against removal. Republicans, too, won't choose to remove Trump from office. They won't suddenly change their tune because it's been verified that Trump broke the law. Especially if they pass the healthcare bill and have momentum on their legislative agenda, with tax reform in their sights.

What would be the point?
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 3:02 AM #2467
I think there is a good chance Trump could find himself in legal trouble before his term is up. There is so much time for him to do new stupid things, or for previous illegal things to be uncovered.

Remember how many potential scandals and conspiracy theories the Republicans had to go through before they found what they needed in that dress (Clinton body count, etc.).
2017-06-12, 3:09 AM #2468
Yeah, Democrats and even some Republicans can produce as many legal troubles for the president as they want. But there isn't any law that automatically leads to the president being compelled to step down from office. Trump isn't removed from office unless 2/3 of the senate decides they want to get rid of him (25th amendment is wishful thinking and won't happen). The only reason they'd get rid of him is if he's an electoral liability -- if that.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 3:13 AM #2469
A smaller portion of the American public right now wants Trump to be impeached (somewhere between 43%-48%) than wanted Bush to be impeached in 2006, leading up to the midterms (51%).
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 3:23 AM #2470
I actually don't put too much faith in opinion polls at this moment, because I've been tracking Trump's various troubles, and from what I can tell, his popularity seems only loosely corrollated in the short term to revelations that he might be seriously endangered legally.

As for actual impeachment? Maybe not (at least not from the scandals that we know about so far, as I made a point of above), but on the other hand I hope to see him go through as much legal misery as possible.

For example, he apparently he went through a deposition a few years back, in which he was gloriously forced to repudiate lie after lie, just because he was under oath.
2017-06-12, 3:51 AM #2471
hehe: https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/873267853037842433

Yeah, I don't think anyone really wins from raking him over the coals for the duration of his presidency.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 4:02 AM #2472
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yeah, I don't think anyone really wins from [snip] his presidency.


FTFY.

(With the possible exception of Jake Tapper, as well as Trump himself and his shady circle of buisness associates, and I guess the Russian government. When did they forget about you and me??)
2017-06-12, 4:15 AM #2473
Well, if the healthcare bill passes, and then tax reform passes, there will definitely be some people who win from his presidency. If there weren't powerful people who have an interest in him being president, he wouldn't be president anymore.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 4:28 AM #2474
They are all shady businessmen, though perhaps not his associates I'll admit.

He's good at making deals. Translated: he is super cynical because he only cares about making deals for himself.

So yes I agree it will be good for the tiny number of wealthy who he sold the country out to.
2017-06-12, 9:15 AM #2475
Non-stop litigation isn't going to make it any more difficult for the GOP to accomplish its goals, as the increasing likeliness of the passing of the health care bill indicates. The GOP will get stuff done, no matter what is thrown at them. The only benefit of burying the administration in litigation is schadenfreude.
former entrepreneur
2017-06-12, 5:17 PM #2476
A fearsome notion I stumbled upon this morning: what if the litigation against the president becomes so blown up by the media, and so much for him to bear, that it stagnates political progress of the GOP, to an extent that will be easy to admit by all parties invovled, that for practical purposes, the only way forward will be for the president to pardon himself. And barring this even happening, the threat of it could even have a chilling effect on litigious individuals.

Then the transformation of the POTUS into the American Caesar will be done.

Amusingly, moments after musing about this terrifying possibility, somebody notified me of news of a stage production which adapts the downfall of the actual Julius Caesar, to a modern Trump-like figure, and in which the murder of the leader is gruesomely enacted on stage, and which precipitated advertiser backlash amid the pretence of public outcry propagated in the media (and actual outcry I am sure among those who feel that assassination is morally wrong, and stupid).
2017-06-12, 7:33 PM #2477
nm, somebody just told me that presidential pardon power applies only to criminal law and not civil.
2017-06-13, 11:43 AM #2478
*ahem*
former entrepreneur
2017-06-13, 12:33 PM #2479
Yeah, Russians hacked election systems.
2017-06-13, 12:40 PM #2480
That's not the point of the article.
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