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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-12-26, 8:29 PM #6641
Oh, it's even worse. Any time someone sells BTC on Bitfinex, they aren't even allotted real USD held by some Bitfinex account, they are given Tethers, and so far very few have been able to actually wire USD into their accounts.

So, we basically have an incestuous relationship with Bitfinex and Tether (many of the higher ups are the same people), meanwhile they freeze accounts, aren't guaranteeing USD, have dubious amounts of Tethers issued after a massive increase in their market cap (I think some hundreds of millions of tethers issued, nobody know where the actual USD is, or if the USD even is).

If this doesn't smell like a massive Ponzi scheme then I have some crypto to sell you.
2017-12-26, 9:41 PM #6642
I just want USDT to never have existed. I could be a bulti millionaire instead of just one by now if Bitcoin would just show it's true colors. BULTI MILLIONAIRE
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-26, 11:39 PM #6643
Originally posted by Reid:
If this doesn't smell like a massive Ponzi scheme then I have some crypto to sell you.


More like theft, I think, if I understand the situation correctly.

Someone pays USD to Bitfinex, and receives Bitcoin.
Bitfinex buys USDT from Tether, which is run by the same people.
Bitfinex deposits that USDT into the seller's account.


So, if Bitfinex only ever promises to give you USDT in exchange for your Bitcoin, they're clear. And if Tether isn't obligated to perform the reverse exchange (at full value or otherwise), they're clear too. Then any real money that flows into Bitfinex passes through into Tether, and the owners of Bitfinex/Tether are free to spend that money however they want.
2017-12-26, 11:46 PM #6644
Originally posted by Jon`C:
More like theft, I think, if I understand the situation correctly.

Someone pays USD to Bitfinex, and receives Bitcoin.
Bitfinex buys USDT from Tether, which is run by the same people.
Bitfinex deposits that USDT into the seller's account.

So, if Bitfinex only ever promises to give you USDT in exchange for your Bitcoin, they're clear. And if Tether isn't obligated to perform the reverse exchange (at full value or otherwise), they're clear too. Then any real money that flows into Bitfinex passes through into Tether, and the owners of Bitfinex/Tether are free to spend that money however they want.


From what I can tell, they are telling people it's USD and not USDT. At least in a thread on Reddit about it, many people are expressing surprise and a bit of outrage about this.

As per Tether, their main webpage says:

Quote:
100% Backed

Every tether is always backed 1-to-1, by traditional currency held in our reserves. So 1 USD₮ is always equivalent to 1 USD.


But they do state in some fine print that they do not guarantee this exchange, so, not clear to me that's what they do if I was just a random person reading their self-advertisement.

I say "Ponzi scheme" but I guess that isn't right, the people researching this speculate that Bitfinex has put withdraw limits on their accounts so that there can't be a big run, which suggests they aren't solvent, but if that cash is "USDT" then it suggests neither are Tethers. So "fraud" is, I suppose, more appropriate.
2017-12-26, 11:49 PM #6645
In any case, from a surface level view, many people have no idea what's "really" behind the dollars they see on Bitfinex, a house built on a foundation of sand, and it's probably not the case that there was collective delusion about the way Bitfinex works, more likely they are purposefully deceptive about their platform.
2017-12-26, 11:51 PM #6646
Originally posted by Reid:
the people researching this speculate that Bitfinex has put withdraw limits on their accounts so that there can't be a big run, which suggests they aren't solvent


Shame, if only there were some kind of lender of last resort.
2017-12-27, 12:18 AM #6647
I guess Tether's whitepaper explicitly states that they do guarantee deposits, but their TOS says they don't. So they have conflicting information.

OTOH, I found another website's whitepaper:

https://paragoncoin.com/whitepaper.pdf

Which is absolutely funny.
2017-12-27, 12:20 AM #6648
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Shame, if only there were some kind of lender of last resort.


It's funny how the libertarian dream for a currency ends up being a market of totally worthless speculation and scams that depends on government infrastructure and can only be fixed through intervention.

I doubt many of the technolibertarians who really believe in this sort of stuff can understand why this is, though.
2017-12-27, 12:21 AM #6649
Originally posted by Spook:
I just want USDT to never have existed. I could be a bulti millionaire instead of just one by now if Bitcoin would just show it's true colors. BULTI MILLIONAIRE


Do you actually own bitcoin?
2017-12-27, 1:04 AM #6650
I don't understand a lot of the condescension towards Bitcoin buyers. Too many people seem to think of it as something other than a decision that some people are making with their money -- whether a good decision or a bad decision. For some people, it was a very, very good decision -- even, a life-altering decision -- , and, like a lot of things like this, it was a good decision purely because of luck. For others, -- especially people who are going in big right now -- it could be a horrible decision. Or maybe it won't be. Who knows? But why do you care, dear Bitcoin skeptic, if you've decided you're not going to buy any? It doesn't concern you.

I get the impression that a lot of people who ***** and moan about bitcoin are desperately awaiting the collapse of bitcoin prices just so all that jealousy they feel can turn into schadenfreude, and so they can say "told you so."
former entrepreneur
2017-12-27, 1:11 AM #6651
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't understand a lot of the condescension towards Bitcoin buyers. Too many people seem to think of it as something other than a decision that some people are making with their money -- whether a good decision or a bad decision. For some people, it was a very, very good decision -- even, a life-altering decision -- , and, like a lot of things like this, it was a good decision purely because of luck. For others, -- especially people who are going in big right now -- it could be a horrible decision. Or maybe it won't be. Who knows? But why do you care, dear Bitcoin skeptic, if you've decided you're not going to buy any? It doesn't concern you.

I get the impression that a lot of people who ***** and moan about bitcoin are desperately awaiting the collapse of bitcoin prices just so all that jealousy they feel can turn into schadenfreude, and so they can say "told you so."


http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/12/climatedesk-bitcoin-is-really-bad-for-the-environment/
2017-12-27, 3:32 AM #6652
Originally posted by Jon`C:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/12/climatedesk-bitcoin-is-really-bad-for-the-environment/


So if it weren't for the wasteful energy consumption you'd be indifferent?
former entrepreneur
2017-12-27, 8:46 AM #6653
Originally posted by Reid:
Do you actually own bitcoin?


No, I've only ever had Bitcoin because that used to be the only one I could get on Coinbase, so I had to buy that and swap for Ether, I've been way over bitcoin for 5 years. I stopped purchasing new crypto after
eth went over $20. I bought it because I am going to use it for weird art, not as an investment, so my cost basis of ****s to give about it is so low I'm sitting on the gains of a lifetime. I will probably hang on to it and just use it to pay to deploy contracts for my blockchain tulip trading game I want to make.

Speaking of the energy consumption Jon but Casper is due out 'soon'. Bitcoin will never switch to an equivalent fix, so I'm thinking it should cause a feeding frenzy of people obsessed with supply reduction driving the price up, which should drive the price up for a little bit. This will at least give me some gains to cash out to blow on escorts.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-27, 10:15 AM #6654
Originally posted by Spook:
No, I've only ever had Bitcoin because that used to be the only one I could get on Coinbase, so I had to buy that and swap for Ether, I've been way over bitcoin for 5 years. I stopped purchasing new crypto after
eth went over $20.


Ethereum has spiked too, right?

Originally posted by Spook:
I bought it because I am going to use it for weird art,


Uhhh

Originally posted by Spook:
not as an investment, so my cost basis of ****s to give about it is so low I'm sitting on the gains of a lifetime. I will probably hang on to it and just use it to pay to deploy contracts for my blockchain tulip trading game I want to make.


Now that sounds rad, is that why you knew of that program which created new cryptos?

Originally posted by Spook:
Speaking of the energy consumption Jon but Casper is due out 'soon'. Bitcoin will never switch to an equivalent fix, so I'm thinking it should cause a feeding frenzy of people obsessed with supply reduction driving the price up, which should drive the price up for a little bit. This will at least give me some gains to cash out to blow on escorts.


Oooh, party at Spook's house everybody!
2017-12-27, 10:18 AM #6655
Dude, what is it with #resistance people and movie references in politics? **** like this:

[https://i.imgur.com/jWMiwUX.jpg]

But the most egregious are the Harry Potter references. I can't think of any other political movement that can only understand politics by making references to movie plots. Like what the actual ****.
2017-12-27, 11:38 AM #6656
Originally posted by Eversor:
So if it weren't for the wasteful energy consumption you'd be indifferent?


Nope, but it’s an effectively unfixable problem with Bitcoin that everybody should understand. Bitcoin is environmentally bad and the people who speculate on it are part of the problem.

I have many serious concerns about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. Political, economic, financial, philosophical, technological concerns. Unlike the wastefulness of bitcoin, not everybody is going to agree with all of those concerns.

This isn’t just begrudging people for successfully gambling on something. Playing the lottery is silly, but if someone wins I’m not going to hate them for gambling on it. Bitcoin is different. For a lot of reasons.
2017-12-27, 12:38 PM #6657
Originally posted by Reid:
Ethereum has spiked too, right?


It's up nearly half a million percent since I bought it so spikes are pretty relative for me at this point.

Quote:
Now that sounds rad, is that why you knew of that program which created new cryptos?


Well for other things, the tulip game is mostly a joke. Did you not hear about cryptokitties.co? I am interested in trying out the media distribution stuff, which is the reason I got into this in the first place, because it's going to be a thing, and a thing that is weird, and there should be room for me to put weird things inside of it, which is kind of my main thing in life. I am pretty skeptical of how long this stuff is going to work, but I feel that way about most of the things I still participate in, like cities and written language. Gonna use it despite it's problems in the meantime though. The price rise is majority frustrating because now everyone knows about it before it's done with it's development roadmap
[/QUOTE]
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-27, 5:06 PM #6658
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't understand a lot of the condescension towards Bitcoin buyers. Too many people seem to think of it as something other than a decision that some people are making with their money -- whether a good decision or a bad decision. For some people, it was a very, very good decision -- even, a life-altering decision -- , and, like a lot of things like this, it was a good decision purely because of luck. For others, -- especially people who are going in big right now -- it could be a horrible decision. Or maybe it won't be. Who knows? But why do you care, dear Bitcoin skeptic, if you've decided you're not going to buy any? It doesn't concern you.

I get the impression that a lot of people who ***** and moan about bitcoin are desperately awaiting the collapse of bitcoin prices just so all that jealousy they feel can turn into schadenfreude, and so they can say "told you so."


I don't at all condescend to Bitcoin buyers. I mean, I do a bit to people who bought above $10k, but that's different.

But yeah I'm a walking psychological complex. I log in everyday and scour for information which will confirm my bias, and have a shotgun of dickpics ready to send to everyone on bitcoin forums once it bombs.
2017-12-27, 5:09 PM #6659
Originally posted by Spook:
It's up nearly half a million percent since I bought it so spikes are pretty relative for me at this point.


Congrats, when's the party?

Originally posted by Spook:
Well for other things, the tulip game is mostly a joke. Did you not hear about cryptokitties.co? I am interested in trying out the media distribution stuff, which is the reason I got into this in the first place, because it's going to be a thing, and a thing that is weird, and there should be room for me to put weird things inside of it, which is kind of my main thing in life. I am pretty skeptical of how long this stuff is going to work, but I feel that way about most of the things I still participate in, like cities and written language. Gonna use it despite it's problems in the meantime though. The price rise is majority frustrating because now everyone knows about it before it's done with it's development roadmap


I've heard of cryptokitties now! Looks like a funny venture, I'd bet if you get it out soon you'd be featured in a Forbed oped or something. How much work are you looking at here?
2017-12-27, 5:12 PM #6660
[https://i.redd.it/5c8un9sjq7601.jpg]

Wow really doing alot there to resist Trump, they'll be out of the WH any second now.
2017-12-28, 1:49 AM #6661
Originally posted by Reid:
But yeah I'm a walking psychological complex. I log in everyday and scour for information which will confirm my bias, and have a shotgun of dickpics ready to send to everyone on bitcoin forums once it bombs.


Cool.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-28, 10:21 AM #6662
Originally posted by Reid:
Congrats, when's the party?


It's going to be a permanant party once I build my apocalypse ranch, as long as you enjoy whole grain pasta and yeasty home made mead.



Quote:
I've heard of cryptokitties now! Looks like a funny venture, I'd bet if you get it out soon you'd be featured in a Forbed oped or something. How much work are you looking at here?


Get out of cryptokitties? Are you insane, there's some wikileaks ones, I have to buy those! How much work to get sell crypto? You just sell it on an exchange, it's completely trivial to do it. Paying taxes is going to be so much fun though.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-28, 10:34 AM #6663
Do you realize a capital gain if you sell one cryptocurrency for another, or only if you somehow magically get USD for it?
2017-12-28, 2:07 PM #6664
Accountant consensus seems to be that each trade is a taxable event, not like-kind.

In the US of course
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-28, 2:16 PM #6665
I assume Bitfinex isn't withholding taxes on trades, either.
2017-12-28, 3:14 PM #6666
Certainly not lmao
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-28, 5:48 PM #6667
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I assume Bitfinex isn't withholding taxes on trades, either.


Originally posted by Spook:
Certainly not lmao


"It's a common misconception that Bitcoin facilitates crime"
2017-12-28, 6:17 PM #6668
Originally posted by Reid:
"It's a common misconception that Bitcoin facilitates crime"


Of course it facilitates crime. Anything worth anything facilitates crime. If you can't buy drugs guns and people with your currency it's probably a ****ing FAKE
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-28, 6:21 PM #6669
So imagine selling a million bucks of bitcoin, getting worthless Tethers in return, and still owing the IRS 250k
2017-12-28, 8:46 PM #6670
Originally posted by Jon`C:
So imagine selling a million bucks of bitcoin, getting worthless Tethers in return, and still owing the IRS 250k


oh man that sounds terriblle so glad id ont have to touch either
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-29, 9:59 AM #6671
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/12/28/theres-still-little-evidence-that-russias-2016-social-media-efforts-did-much-of-anything/?hpid=hp_regional-hp-cards_rhp-card-politics%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.d7f933ce0d7d

Another article on the impotence of Russian interference.

Apparently they targetted Maryland harder than Wisconsin lmao
2017-12-29, 10:28 AM #6672
Originally posted by Reid:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/12/28/theres-still-little-evidence-that-russias-2016-social-media-efforts-did-much-of-anything/?hpid=hp_regional-hp-cards_rhp-card-politics%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.d7f933ce0d7d

Another article on the impotence of Russian interference.

Apparently they targetted Maryland harder than Wisconsin lmao


I don't know, man. To me Russians buying ads on social media sites to influence the election was always a sideshow. The really important questions have mostly to do with to what extent did the Trump campaign know about the Wikileaks leaks before they happened, and to what extent did they collaborate with entities associated with them.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-29, 10:34 AM #6673
I agree it's a distraction from possible collusion, but I don't know if we'd always felt that way :)
2017-12-29, 11:18 AM #6674
Originally posted by Reid:
I agree it's a distraction from possible collusion, but I don't know if we'd always felt that way :)


I'm not sure who you mean by "we". But anyway, a lot of people saw in Russia's social media campaign material that might be useful for removing Trump from office. Others saw Russia's cyber campaign as a reason why the US needs to be vigilant in the future. (Obviously, some held both these views.) They weren't entirely wrong to have suspicions, given just how many resources Russia put into their campaign.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-29, 11:34 AM #6675
Originally posted by Reid:
Dude, what is it with #resistance people and movie references in politics? **** like this:

But the most egregious are the Harry Potter references. I can't think of any other political movement that can only understand politics by making references to movie plots. Like what the actual ****.


yeah nobody on the right has ever related their politics to pop culture!
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-29, 11:46 AM #6676
Originally posted by mb:
yeah nobody on the right has ever related their politics to pop culture!


To be fair though, I don’t think the American History X reference is intentional.
2017-12-29, 1:01 PM #6677
Originally posted by Spook:
Accountant consensus seems to be that each trade is a taxable event, not like-kind.

In the US of course


So it's essentially, in their eyes, going bitcoin -> USD and USD -> WhateverCoin ?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2017-12-29, 1:54 PM #6678
Originally posted by ECHOMAN:
So it's essentially, in their eyes, going bitcoin -> USD and USD -> WhateverCoin ?

Going bitcoin->whatevercoin
2017-12-29, 2:02 PM #6679
This is consistent with e.g. IRC 988, from what I understand of it. But “real” currency exchanges tend to be fairly liquid, while bitcoin and others appear to be illiquid in practice. That means anybody who sold Bitcoin for Tethers is screwed, because they will have to pay their capital gains in real cash, and probably won’t have any capital losses to show for it in this tax year.
2017-12-29, 2:18 PM #6680
This is like a few levels of Catch 22

Bitcoin buyers are excited by the new prices, but people ask why they have value.

They have value, the buyers say, because it's a medium of exchange, despite more sellers dropping bitcoin lately than adopting.

Since they want bitcoin to be a medium of exchange, a currency, it should be taxed as currency exchange, which basically ****s most of them.

However, these same speculators drive massive price fluctuations which is driving sellers to drop bitcoin.

Basically Bitcoin's not used for it's intended purpose and is rather a tool for unbridled scams and speculation. And tax evasion.
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