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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-02-15, 2:11 PM #721
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The US's invincibility is propaganda, but more knowledgeable people than you have made this mistake, so you shouldn't feel too bad about it.

I've read stuff from wargames nerds, who concluded that it would take the combined military of the entire rest of the planet to successfully invade and hold the United States. That, of course, assumes that you're interested in holding the United States, versus just crippling it, and that the people who lived there had unlimited endurance for warfare. You don't need a full-scale invasion in order to effectively defeat an enemy.

Here's a great talk from DEFCON about how a very small number of skilled people can topple a government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_pYBkW7qgI


Originally posted by Jon`C:
I honestly think that 80% of the US's political problems around defense and intelligence are caused by idiot politicians who get into power, discover that the "US = invincible" propaganda is false, panic, and spend spend spend trying to make it true. And the other 20% are caused by idiot politicians who don't even understand that much.


Alright, so, I was wrong to suggest Putin presents no threat. I'm consuming the testimony and it's fascinating.

In the meantime, how significant to you is the ties with Trump to Russia? Does this have the capacity to truly topple American supremacy?
2017-02-15, 2:13 PM #722
Originally posted by Eversor:
No, I definitely don't think that. Doesn't seem like we agree on much. Pretty funny suggestion coming from an avowed stickler on evidence, though.


I'm fine with speculation that knows it's speculation.
2017-02-15, 2:16 PM #723
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm fine with speculation that knows it's speculation.


oh yeah, totally. I'm agnostic about whether Ted Cruz's dad was in on the JFK assassination. I see both sides, man. *rolleyes*
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 2:19 PM #724
AMERICAN DECLARATION OF IGNORABIMUS

We hold these truths to be self-evident--that all factoids and all hands were created equal
2017-02-15, 2:23 PM #725
doing my dissertation in the category of factoids. Get the inside scoop on Conway's Theorem!
2017-02-15, 2:26 PM #726
Originally posted by Reid:
Alright, so, I was wrong to suggest Putin presents no threat. I'm consuming the testimony and it's fascinating.

In the meantime, how significant to you is the ties with Trump to Russia? Does this have the capacity to truly topple American supremacy?


American supremacy? Of what?
2017-02-15, 2:27 PM #727
Originally posted by Reid:
In the meantime, how significant to you is the ties with Trump to Russia? Does this have the capacity to truly topple American supremacy?


Throughout the past few posts you've written with the assumption that anything short of "toppling American supremacy" wouldn't be "impactful" or damaging.

But Russia has already done significant damage to the republic. Nobody knows whether once he's gone -- whether in one month, a year, four or eight -- whether we recover from the crisis of authority and lack of faith in our institutions and the electoral process. It had already been bad before the 2016 election.

That's asymmetrical war in the 21st century. The NYT's rhetoric after Nov 8th, which compared Russian interference with warfare, was justified. On certain axes, such as GDP, military spending, natural resources, infrastructure, economics, etc, some countries, such as the US, have massive advantages. But nuclear arms, cyber warfare and others, enable some countries to punch far above their weight class, and basically stand among countries in the first tier as equals.
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 2:30 PM #728
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
doing my dissertation in the category of factoids. Get the inside scoop on Conway's Theorem!


Lol, I thought the chinese beat us to that proof. Sad!

Originally posted by Jon`C:
American supremacy? Of what?


Political, economic, military control of significant portions of the world. Or maybe it's a poorly posed question. Will this lead to Russia taking control of larger sections of the world?
2017-02-15, 2:32 PM #729
I'm actually fine with Trump toppling the United States government. It would destroy the white liberal patriarchy, which also happens to be the one thing holding me back from turning my local local co-op grocery store into a full-fledged government that respects the struggle of Native Americans.
2017-02-15, 2:35 PM #730
let me know if you want to buy handmade soap made from hemp oil
2017-02-15, 2:37 PM #731
> "Russia taking control of larger sections of the world?"
> 2017
2017-02-15, 2:38 PM #732
Originally posted by Eversor:
Throughout the past few posts you've written with the assumption that anything short of "toppling American supremacy" wouldn't be "impactful" or damaging.


Sorry, if that's what you've understood, that's not what I meant.

Originally posted by Eversor:
But Russia has already done significant damage to the republic. Nobody knows whether once he's gone -- whether in one month, a year, four or eight -- whether we recover from the crisis of authority and lack of faith in our institutions and the electoral process. It had already been bad before the 2016 election.


So I agree, there's significant damage done by Trump already. The mere fact that U.S. Intelligence is now redirecting their resources inward and Russia has gotten away with a bold move, may embolden other enemies to commit acts. It's bad for American all around.

My only question with what you just said is, why does "faith in our institutions and electoral process" matter? Would it be a good thing to you if everyone simply believed American democracy was great, despite it not being great? I mean, we haven't gotten to the point of having sham "90% of people voted for the dictator" elections, right, so complete cynicism with American democracy is unwarranted. Unless we're not talking about average Americans, or there's something else I'm not getting.

Originally posted by Eversor:
That's asymmetrical war in the 21st century. The NYT's rhetoric after Nov 8th, which compared Russian interference with warfare, was justified. On certain axes, such as GDP, military spending, natural resources, infrastructure, economics, etc, some countries, such as the US, have massive advantages. But nuclear arms, cyber warfare and others, enable some countries to punch far above their weight class, and basically stand among countries in the first tier as equals.


It is an act of war. And I get what you're saying. Russia is one of the strongest countries is cyber-warfare, I definitely recognize that.
2017-02-15, 2:39 PM #733
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I'm actually fine with Trump toppling the United States government. It would destroy the white liberal patriarchy, which also happens to be the one thing holding me back from turning my local local co-op grocery store into a full-fledged government that respects the struggle of Native Americans.


Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
let me know if you want to buy handmade soap made from hemp oil


What are you even talking about?

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
> "Russia taking control of larger sections of the world?"
> 2017


Uh, Russia controlled that section of the world, and was afraid of losing control, so they invaded. They're trying to maintain status quo, not expand.
2017-02-15, 2:44 PM #734
It's not a matter of being great. It's a matter of adequacy. And American institutions are perfectly morally adequate for the purposes of garbage collecting the resources claimed by the segfault of a life living in the White House.
2017-02-15, 2:47 PM #735
Quote:
What are you even talking about?


The pot smoking musician on my Facebook feed who got all in a huff when I criticized "Black Bloc" anarchists, who thought they were smashing the patriarchy by setting fire to property in reaction to a right wing troll.
2017-02-15, 2:49 PM #736
Quote:
Uh, Russia controlled that section of the world, and was afraid of losing control, so they invaded. They're trying to maintain status quo, not expand.


I actually don't know too much about the precise details of the situation in Eastern Europe, but I do find it a little shocking that you'd side with the Kremlin. They are a cancer on the world.
2017-02-15, 2:54 PM #737
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I actually don't know too much about the precise details of the situation in Eastern Europe, but I do find it a little shocking that you'd side with the Kremlin. They are a cancer on the world.


? I'm exasperated. I'm not "defending the Kremlin" by saying "prior to 2014, Russia had significant control over Ukraine's politics". There were tensions and Ukraine was moving to buddy up to NATO and leave Russia's sphere of influence.

That doesn't make it right what they did, it's just what they did.
2017-02-15, 2:59 PM #738
Yes, and Ukraine used to be just one part of what harmonious "union", in more glorious times?
2017-02-15, 3:00 PM #739
Originally posted by Reid:
Political, economic, military control of significant portions of the world. Or maybe it's a poorly posed question. Will this lead to Russia taking control of larger sections of the world?


Your main mistake is equating influence with control.
2017-02-15, 3:04 PM #740
Since the Soviet Union fell, Eastern Europe has been slowly transitioning from the remnants of Soviet control to the control of liberal Western Europe. For all it's problems I see this as a good thing. Putin's trying to stop the advancement of what he probably sees as "anti-Russian" forces Eastern. Putin's scrambling to maintain the control Russia has over former Soviet countries, he's not doing some proactive, out-of-the-blue invasions like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

He would probably like to expand West, but that's not what's been happening. Until now, where the invasion of Ukraine and now the American election shows he can push back.
2017-02-15, 3:05 PM #741
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Your main mistake is equating influence with control.


You're right, I equivocated.
2017-02-15, 3:06 PM #742
Quote:
he's not doing some proactive, out-of-the-blue invasions like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.


I fail to see how that would justify it.

And I am certainly not interested to see just how far he decides to "push pack".
2017-02-15, 3:07 PM #743
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Yes, and Ukraine used to be just one part of what harmonious "union", in more glorious times?


Well I mean, the Soviet Union had total control of Ukrainian politics. It then became an independent state, but economic momentum meant it's primary trading partners had to be ex-Soviet states.

Jon's comment is accurate, the word I used should have been "influence", whereas Putin seeks "control".
2017-02-15, 3:07 PM #744
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I fail to see how that would justify it.

And I am certainly not interested to see just how far he decides to "push pack".


I'm not trying to "justify it", I'm trying to explain it. Like how you can understand mental illness without being mentally ill.
2017-02-15, 3:08 PM #745
Originally posted by Reid:
My only question with what you just said is, why does "faith in our institutions and electoral process" matter? Would it be a good thing to you if everyone simply believed American democracy was great, despite it not being great? I mean, we haven't gotten to the point of having sham "90% of people voted for the dictator" elections, right, so complete cynicism with American democracy is unwarranted. Unless we're not talking about average Americans, or there's something else I'm not getting.


Yeah, there are quite a few things you're not grasping.

But one of the more obvious ones is that "faith in institutions" has nothing to do with believing that "American democracy [is] great", or in American exceptionalism, or anything like that. It has more to do elections being free and fair, and citizens believing them to be so, or citizens believing that newspapers are reliable, trustworthy sources of information, when they are in fact reliable, trustworthy sources of information. And so on and so on. It has to do with trust among citizens that their institutions do what they claim to do.
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 3:10 PM #746
Look, I don't know much about Ukrainian history, but I would hazard to guess that they don't particularly care to be controlled by a foreign government. Seeing that their language and culture is closer to that of Russia than, say, Lithuania, makes occupation less egregious, but I would be highly skeptical that they would want it.

Unless you think the Marshall Plan was merely part of our "empire" and was no better than the USSR's motivation for COMECON....
2017-02-15, 3:13 PM #747
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Look, I don't know much about Ukrainian history, but I would hazard to guess that they don't particularly care to be controlled by a foreign government. Seeing that their language and culture is closer to that of Russia than, say, Lithuania, makes occupation less egregious, but I would be highly skeptical that they would want it.


Nobody has said that! In fact, the history leading up to the invasion is basically their rejection of Russian control.
2017-02-15, 3:15 PM #748
Okay, so you are simply arguing that the evidence points to the theory that Putin will stop at Ukraine, in large part because of historic ties between the greater region.

Have I heard this logic before?
2017-02-15, 3:15 PM #749
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yeah, there are quite a few things you're not grasping.

But one of the more obvious ones is that "faith in institutions" has nothing to do with believing that "American democracy [is] great", or in American exceptionalism, or anything like that. It has more to do elections being free and fair, and believing them to be so, or that newspapers are reliable, trustworthy sources of information, when they are reliable trustworthy sources of information. And so on and so on.


So what I'm getting is, Trump supporters, who seem to believe the exact opposite on both points, are the biggest problem in America right now?
2017-02-15, 3:16 PM #750
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Okay, so you are simply arguing that the evidence points to the theory that Putin will stop at Ukraine.

Have I heard this logic before?


I think he'll stop with Georgia!

Oh, wait.
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 3:16 PM #751
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Okay, so you are simply arguing that the evidence points to the theory that Putin will stop at Ukraine.

Have I heard this logic before?


I didn't said this and I don't believe this.
2017-02-15, 3:23 PM #752
Which brings us back to your original question:

Originally posted by Reid:

Originally posted by Jon`C:

Originally posted by Reid:

Originally posted by Jon`C:
I honestly think that 80% of the US's political problems around defense and intelligence are caused by idiot politicians who get into power, discover that the "US = invincible" propaganda is false, panic, and spend spend spend trying to make it true. And the other 20% are caused by idiot politicians who don't even understand that much.


Alright, so, I was wrong to suggest Putin presents no threat. I'm consuming the testimony and it's fascinating.

In the meantime, how significant to you is the ties with Trump to Russia? Does this have the capacity to truly topple American supremacy?


American supremacy? Of what?


Political, economic, military control of significant portions of the world. Or maybe it's a poorly posed question. Will this lead to Russia taking control of larger sections of the world?


I've been pretty sardonic about this, so you must know that my answer is: we can bet Putin will try, should Trump hand him the opportunity!
2017-02-15, 3:25 PM #753
Originally posted by Eversor:
I think he'll stop with Georgia!

Oh, wait.


Well I was talking about something that happened a little bit longer ago before that....
2017-02-15, 3:26 PM #754
Originally posted by Reid:
So what I'm getting is, Trump supporters, who seem to believe the exact opposite on both points, are the biggest problem in America right now?


No. It's true across the political spectrum. The Democratic candidate put forward in the general election was compromised too. And your boy Glenn Greenwald loves ripping on WashPo and other "lamestream" media sources just as much as Sarah Palin does. There's also justified skepticism about American financial institutions after the 2008 mortgage crisis. Bush 43 led us into an elective war based on bald-faced lies, and after nearly fourteen years we still haven't been able to extricate ourselves from it. James Clapper lied about the extent to which the NSA runs surveillance on American citizens, and shortly afterwards Edward Snowden exposed him. Beyoncé didn't win the grammy for best album... the awards are a hoax!

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you? The prevailing ethos is that nothing is what it purports to be, and there are powerful special interests that self-servingly and insidiously pull the strings and reap benefit for at the expense of the common man. It's entered into every facet of society. The damn award shows.
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 3:30 PM #755
Originally posted by Reid:
So what I'm getting is, Trump supporters [...] are the biggest problem in America right now?


Yes, along with their propaganda masters on talk radio, and that little ***** Paul Ryan.

UNLESS, we just all get lucky and nothing terrible enough happens before the next election that we can't fix it later. But holy cow, it's been what, like almost a month?
2017-02-15, 3:33 PM #756
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Well I was talking about something that happened a little bit longer ago before that....


If anyone thinks that Putin will stop at the Ukraine, ask the Georgians.
former entrepreneur
2017-02-15, 3:34 PM #757
Originally posted by Eversor:
No. It's true across the political spectrum. The Democratic candidate put forward in the general election was compromised too. And your boy Glenn Greenwald loves ripping on WashPo and other "lamestream" media sources just as much as Sarah Palin does. There's also justified skepticism about American financial institutions after the 2008 mortgage crisis. Bush 43 led us into an elective war based on bald-faced lies, and after nearly fourteen years we still haven't been able to extricate ourselves from it. James Clapper lied about the extent to which the NSA runs surveillance on American citizens, and shortly afterwards Edward Snowden exposes him. Beyoncé didn't win the grammy for best album -- the awards are a hoax.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you? It's entered into every facet of society.


Okay, I agree with you. My problem was I read this

Originally posted by Eversor:
But Russia has already done significant damage to the republic. Nobody knows whether once he's gone -- whether in one month, a year, four or eight -- whether we recover from the crisis of authority and lack of faith in our institutions and the electoral process. It had already been bad before the 2016 election.


and read it as you were implying the primary problem is people's trust in the institutions and not the institutions themselves. I agree trust is necessary for institutions which work properly, but I also don't see our institutions as working properly precisely for the reasons you have mentioned. Can we agree that both need be improved if we're to keep Russia out of our government?
2017-02-15, 3:34 PM #758
The US got where it is by being the world's largest manufacturer of finished goods. That's, um, pretty much it. Everything that followed was in service to that.

Is the US still the world's largest manufacturer of finished goods?

You don't really need Russia's help to lose influence, is what I'm saying. That's already been happening for a long time.
2017-02-15, 3:36 PM #759
Originally posted by Eversor:
If anyone thinks that Putin will stop at the Ukraine, ask the Georgians.


Sure.

Of course, I was talking about the Sudetenland.
2017-02-15, 3:38 PM #760
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The US got where it is by being the world's largest manufacturer of finished goods. That's, um, pretty much it. Everything that followed was in service to that.

Is the US still the world's largest manufacturer of finished goods?

You don't really need Russia's help to lose influence, is what I'm saying. That's already been happening for a long time.


I am sure you are right, but it sure didn't hurt that we had our doors open to some pretty snazzy refugees.
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