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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-01-24, 5:52 PM #201
Originally posted by Reid:
The true crime is that people are politically informed by watching television.


The irony of this, though, is that Fox News is deliberately designed to "inform" people using sound bites, repetition, misinformation and what amounts to basically indoctrination. Same with basically all top-down structured right-wing media, e.g. Rush Limbaugh's radio show. The track record of honest right-wing reporting isn't there. In fact, a found people who watch Fox are less informed than people who don't consume any news media at all.
2017-01-24, 5:58 PM #202
He's a reality TV star playing the president. It makes sense that to figure out what's happening in real life, in order to intuit the president's own intuitive grasp of reality, you too will have to tune in to the corporate media. In the end, everybody wins, since when this truth becomes widely accepted, ratings will be through the roof, heavily stimulating the economy.
2017-01-24, 6:00 PM #203
So now he's expected to sign executive orders restricting immigrants and refugees from entering the country.

Besides the human tragedy, what bothers me a lot is the logic of some of my European acquaintances, who, when in private, will stare me straight in the face and argue that nothing Trump can do with the USDA or EPA matters in the end, so long as we somehow find a way to stop the barbarian hoards of non-whites form entering the country.
2017-01-24, 6:01 PM #204
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Sure, which is why I alluded to the days of the Old Republic, before the dark times. Before the empire.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure I would call FDR a leftist in the strongest sense of the word, but I am beginning to question that conclusion now that I think of it a bit more.

All this Nazi stuff (and now my lack of command of US history) kind of makes me just want to go to the history books to take my mind off this stuff. I was recently recommended the book "Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China" as another example of a (mostly) factual account of a family that experienced the oppression of the Cultural Revolution first hand.


The New Deal was a pretty big program, and did alot of good things. We're not usually taught in American schools that a bunch of it strengthened labor unions and limited the powers of manufacturers over workers, instead we're taught about the conservation corps. In fact the labor history of America is undertaught, probably don't want to give your average American ideas about how to politically modify their environment.
2017-01-24, 6:04 PM #205
I suppose I never thought of the New Deal as some paragon of far left-wing agenda, simply because it is so familiar. But I suppose it must have been hell to get through. I know FDR threatened to pack the courts to accomplish it, and that there was plenty of strife between unions and corporations, but that's about the extent of my knowledge.
2017-01-24, 6:04 PM #206
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I would watch a video of that miserable son of a ***** Ted Cruz getting punched in the face. He also reminds me of Alex from A Clockwork Orange.




The main difference being, despite being a total *******, one of them is sympathetic.

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
So now he's expected to sign executive orders restricting immigrants and refugees from entering the country.

Besides the human tragedy, what bothers me a lot is the logic of some of my European acquaintances, who, when in private, will stare me straight in the face and argue that nothing Trump can do with the USDA or EPA matters in the end, so long as we somehow find a way to stop the barbarian hoards of non-whites form entering the country.


Fascism takes economic, cultural and political antagonisms and redirects them against a "foreign" enemy. That's precisely what Trump has done.
2017-01-24, 6:14 PM #207
I've said that being "anti-" something isn't such an accomplishment in life.

The philosopher René Girard thought that language emerged in humans when people needed a way to describe the "other", and that feelings of good and bad are fundamentally part of the positive vs. negative connotation in language. Identifying outsiders of the tribe with accessible language was essential, and once identified, they could be the scapegoat for whatever negative forces were facing the tribe at the time. The secondary utility of this dynamic is to unite the tribe together in a common effort for their collective good, externalizing the costs of this heuristic onto the scapegoat.

It makes a lot of sense that we've gone back to this tribal dynamic, since the prevalent medium of internet communication (text) has restricted our use of language in ways unfit for an advanced civilization (face-to-face communication is mostly gone, leaving out channels of empathy; anonymity is rampant, so almost everybody who doesn't virtue signal for your side is a potential other), as well as giving disproportionate voices to angry people, who get to use the medium to channel their feelings of inadequacy onto the scapegoat (René Girard had a concept of "mimetic desire"--where we see something external which we would like to mimic, and therefore need to compete to attain it, usually with disastrous consequences).

The funny thing is, Peter Thiel was supposed to be close friends with René Girard, but seems to have totally missed the connection with fascism when he aligned himself with Trump. From what I've gathered, the two things he's learned over the years are that competition (he advocates looking for a niche that will give you a monopoly when starting a company) and democracy are for losers.
2017-01-24, 8:20 PM #208
Oh, great. It looks like he's planning to start building that wall tomorrow. This could be very bad down the road, if the wall (which AFAIK already exists) becomes a target of destruction or protest for anti-fascist radicals, or even political pressure on a far left wing president to eliminate the wall altogether.
2017-01-24, 8:55 PM #209
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
The funny thing is, Peter Thiel was supposed to be close friends with René Girard, but seems to have totally missed the connection with fascism when he aligned himself with Trump.


Thiel is a California secessionist, and a contrarian (troll) accelerationist. That's why he backed Trump.
2017-01-24, 8:55 PM #210
Why does a secessionist have a strong opinion about making the most divisive and dangerously unstable candidate the US president? Well, funny you should ask,...
2017-01-24, 9:16 PM #211
Make Kalifornia Über Alles again.
2017-01-24, 11:28 PM #212
The *******-in-chief is threatening to bring troops into Chicago.
2017-01-24, 11:35 PM #213
Originally posted by Reid:
The *******-in-chief is threatening to bring troops into Chicago.


The general idea is not bad, and is one the mayor is receptive to. Unless we are talking about the national guard matching around the streets.
2017-01-25, 5:42 AM #214
When you're in uniform you tend to match no matter where you are.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 6:02 AM #215
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Allen and VandeHei also reported that Trump doesn’t read books and avoids reports and briefings that he considers too lengthy. That doesn’t mean that Trump is hip to advancing technologies, however — he doesn’t use computers and rarely uses his phone for anything but calls. Even his infamous tweets are often dictated and then submitted by others.


? :)
2017-01-25, 9:18 AM #216
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
The general idea is not bad, and is one the mayor is receptive to. Unless we are talking about the national guard matching around the streets.


What version of troops is more acceptable than the national guard? The national guard should (should, but it's just the federal army basically) be the only acceptable form of troops. And they're not going to show up in like, plain clothes.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-01-25, 9:44 AM #217
Is anyone actually reading the Executive Orders? I finally broke down after hearing some fake news about an executive order that dismantles Obamacare. There's only two of them and the one about Obamacare specifically states every provision of the order is to be carried out in compliance with the law. We all know repeal is the goal, the order even states that, but there's no need to lie about what the order is or does.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 9:49 AM #218
Who's lied? What have they lied about?
former entrepreneur
2017-01-25, 9:51 AM #219
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders_13765_and_above
2017-01-25, 9:58 AM #220
Originally posted by Eversor:
Who's lied? What have they lied about?


^ this

I've only ever seen people talk about the economic burden but, and always in compliance with the law.

But I get my fake news from NYT mostly, so....
2017-01-25, 10:57 AM #221
Originally posted by Spook:
What version of troops is more acceptable than the national guard? The national guard should (should, but it's just the federal army basically) be the only acceptable form of troops. And they're not going to show up in like, plain clothes.


I agree with all that. I just don't think sending troops in to parade the streets would be anything more than showmanship.

But nevermind--I only heard it from Reid that there would be troops in the first place. Trump originally said 'feds', which I interpret as the FBI and other law enforcement--just what the mayor deemed as acceptable.
2017-01-25, 10:58 AM #222
Oh I see.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-01-25, 11:20 AM #223
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I just don't think sending troops in to parade the streets would be anything more than showmanship.

Regardless of intent, I don't think we should forget the lesson of Kent State, & the possibility of things getting out of hand.
? :)
2017-01-25, 12:23 PM #224
Originally posted by Eversor:
Who's lied? What have they lied about?


Basically anyone that's saying he's gutting Obama's signature healthcare law with an executive order.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 12:28 PM #225
I haven't heard/read anyone from a mainstream news source who's made the claim that that's what the executive order did.
former entrepreneur
2017-01-25, 12:49 PM #226
lol.

Trump tweeted right after Faux News did a piece on the violence in Chicago, and used the exact same statistics in his tweet that were used on the show.

They're discussing his constant reactions to the media on CNN right now.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2017-01-25, 1:06 PM #227
I stopped watching the news. And listening to the news. And reading the news online. All the "news" sources these days are just regurgitating "tweets" and "analyzing" them. They don't do journalism anymore, they're just out to make a quick buck on advertising impressions. I'm done.
2017-01-25, 1:10 PM #228
Originally posted by Eversor:
I haven't heard/read anyone from a mainstream news source who's made the claim that that's what the executive order did.


Where I'm seeing/hearing it are social media shared news headlines and brief radio news break segments. Undoubtedly some are click-bait and/or trying to make Trump out to be doing such great things. Personally, I like his executive order on the Affordable Care Act but it doesn't do anything to get rid of it.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 1:12 PM #229
Oh, and I'm not saying it should.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 1:16 PM #230
Originally posted by Wookie06:
social media shared news headlines


There's your problem.

Too many people these days, one could even say a few generations, rely entirely on social media for "news".

You shouldn't get your news from facebook. If only for the fact that it's an echo chamber. You'll only get news from sources that you like, or about subjects that you like. It's not a place where you can get interesting opposing views to form your own opinion.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2017-01-25, 1:24 PM #231
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
There's your problem.

Too many people these days, one could even say a few generations, rely entirely on social media for "news".

You shouldn't get your news from facebook. If only for the fact that it's an echo chamber. You'll only get news from sources that you like, or about subjects that you like. It's not a place where you can get interesting opposing views to form your own opinion.


It's not a problem for me. I do get some news from Facebook but that's because I follow legitimate news sources on Facebook. The problem lies with people sharing misleading stories and people believing them and continuing to share them, which of course is what led to the Fake News moniker that has backfired on the mainstream news media. Today, however, it was a local (or national) news report on a news radio station that got me going on the topic.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 1:36 PM #232
Originally posted by Brian:
I stopped watching the news. And listening to the news. And reading the news online. All the "news" sources these days are just regurgitating "tweets" and "analyzing" them. They don't do journalism anymore, they're just out to make a quick buck on advertising impressions. I'm done.


Well, the problem is also that you've got a president who more or less refuses to address the actual media and would rather tweet everything he has to say.

Which, by the way, is a really popular strategy among populists these days. In The Netherlands, our local fascist cumbubble called Wilders has been doing the same thing for years. He refuses to address the press whatsoever, and if the press can't do its work, that is a major problem in a parliamentary democracy.

1. Tell people the media can't be trusted.
2. Tell people the justice system can't be trusted.
3. Tell people the electoral system can't be trusted..
4.???
5. Profit!

Wilders, Erdogan, Trump. It's not difficult to see the similarities.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2017-01-25, 1:39 PM #233
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
You shouldn't get your news from use facebook. If only for the fact that it's a n echo chamber toxic waste dump.


.
2017-01-25, 1:40 PM #234
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Well, the problem is also that you've got a president who more or less refuses to address the actual media and would rather tweet everything he has to say.

Which, by the way, is a really popular strategy among populists these days. In The Netherlands, our local fascist cumbubble called Wilders has been doing the same thing for years. He refuses to address the press whatsoever, and if the press can't do its work, that is a major problem in a parliamentary democracy.

1. Tell people the media can't be trusted.
2. Tell people the justice system can't be trusted.
3. Tell people the electoral system can't be trusted..
4.???
5. Profit!


yup. When your polices can't withstand debate, the only way forward is to shut down the debate.
2017-01-25, 1:40 PM #235
@Jon`C: agreed on both points.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2017-01-25, 1:44 PM #236
If corporate media is responsible for anything, it's this. Dealing with both sides of every issue as though they have equal merit. Evolution vs creationism? Anthropogenic global warming? Abortion? They frame these issues like the sloppy, stupid side is equally valid, when they aren't. This, more than anything else, is what's made people proud to be stupid. And suddenly everybody is always right all of the time. Nobody's opinions have to be challenged anymore, and nobody's feelings need to get hurt. And it doesn't really matter that you've voted for an aliterate sociopath, because no matter what he does, he's always gonna be right!

"All news is fake news."
2017-01-25, 2:04 PM #237
That's beneath you.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2017-01-25, 2:18 PM #238
Originally posted by Wookie06:
That's beneath you.


Hey, I didn't say which side is the sloppy, stupid side, did I? But apparently I didn't need to. :)
2017-01-25, 2:18 PM #239
Originally posted by Jon`C:
If corporate media is responsible for anything, it's this. Dealing with both sides of every issue as though they have equal merit. Evolution vs creationism? Anthropogenic global warming? Abortion? They frame these issues like the sloppy, stupid side is equally valid, when they aren't. This, more than anything else, is what's made people proud to be stupid. And suddenly everybody is always right all of the time. Nobody's opinions have to be challenged anymore, and nobody's feelings need to get hurt. And it doesn't really matter that you've voted for an aliterate sociopath, because no matter what he does, he's always gonna be right!

"All news is fake news."


Fake news is at least not a new thing. Does anyone remember when Hearst manufactured an entire war through news? All news has always been fake news. And we had a chance to open that up and have primary source reporting change things. But we went so hard on that that everyone is a primary source for their own little world. Which is not fake news, it's the balkanization of the collective unconscious. Except more jungian archetypes to manifest through social media because of this. Also Plato thinks any sort of facscimilie is fake news. We have always been at war with fake news. An alliterative sociopath seems fun though.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-01-25, 2:37 PM #240
Quote:
All news has always been fake news.


Let's not get carried away. Earlier I asked Wookie if he saw a difference between Breitbart, Huffpo, and the Daily Caller, compared to WSJ and NPR. Please don't tell me you also see no difference.
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