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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-02-14, 12:50 PM #7361
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Psychology, but unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to actually verify scientifically as previously thought, and many supposedly fundamental studies failing to be reproduced (although the reproduciblity crisis could be overblown).


If anything it's not being taken seriously enough. Academia's bias for positive results combined with endemic p-hacking means every single experimental result in social psychology needs to be ignored. The field isn't a fixer-upper, it's a tear-down.
2018-02-14, 12:51 PM #7362
Here

Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I've said that being "anti-" something isn't such an accomplishment in life.

The philosopher René Girard thought that language emerged in humans when people needed a way to describe the "other", and that feelings of good and bad are fundamentally part of the positive vs. negative connotation in language. Identifying outsiders of the tribe with accessible language was essential, and once identified, they could be the scapegoat for whatever negative forces were facing the tribe at the time. The secondary utility of this dynamic is to unite the tribe together in a common effort for their collective good, externalizing the costs of this heuristic onto the scapegoat.

It makes a lot of sense that we've gone back to this tribal dynamic, since the prevalent medium of internet communication (text) has restricted our use of language in ways unfit for an advanced civilization (face-to-face communication is mostly gone, leaving out channels of empathy; anonymity is rampant, so almost everybody who doesn't virtue signal for your side is a potential other), as well as giving disproportionate voices to angry people, who get to use the medium to channel their feelings of inadequacy onto the scapegoat (René Girard had a concept of "mimetic desire"--where we see something external which we would like to mimic, and therefore need to compete to attain it, usually with disastrous consequences).

The funny thing is, Peter Thiel was supposed to be close friends with René Girard, but seems to have totally missed the connection with fascism when he aligned himself with Trump. From what I've gathered, the two things he's learned over the years are that competition (he advocates looking for a niche that will give you a monopoly when starting a company) and democracy are for losers.
2018-02-14, 12:57 PM #7363
Heh, if human sacrifices are necessary to absolve the tribe of its sins and to create a feeling of solidarity and collective unity within the tribe, it kind of puts #metoo into perspective.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-14, 12:58 PM #7364
Originally posted by Eversor:
I can't remember if Girard also has something to say about debt, and if that has something to do with the need for sacrifice in ancient religions, or if I'm just reading that back into my half-memories. Nietzsche in the Genealogy of Morals talks about debt that is owed to dead ancestors as one of the original inspirations of religion, so I might've fused that idea with my memories of Girard (he reminded me a lot of Nietzsche when I heard about him, probably a decade ago by now).


Don't know about Nietzsche, but see my above self quotation about sacrifice and language. Girard's admiration for Christianity comes in through his view that the sacrifice of Christ effectively ended rituals of sacrificing wayward in-group members that have been associated with early religions for a long time. This relates to scapegoating, since it would often be the "weird" in group members who take the blame for external maladies like famine, and would be scapegoated and possibly sacrificed for it.

Of course the Nazi interpretation of the death of Christ sort of turns this on its head....
2018-02-14, 12:59 PM #7365
Originally posted by Eversor:
Heh, if human sacrifices are necessary to absolve the tribe of its sins and to create a feeling of solidarity and collective unity within the tribe, it kind of puts #metoo into perspective.


Girard's theory of scapegoating and group dynamics are a little like Marxism, in the sense that once you understand it you start to see the dynamic everywhere.
2018-02-14, 1:02 PM #7366
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Of course the Nazi interpretation of the death of Christ sort of turns this on its head....


If I'm correctly inferring what you're talking about, it was also the Catholics' interpretation until the Second Vatican Council in 1962.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-14, 1:04 PM #7367
So maybe there is a computer science interpretation: the theory is powerful enough that by seeing it everywhere, the principle applies in a sort of recursive way, since you yourself can easily see anything you dislike as being part of the outgroup and therefore worthy of being explained away as tribal dynamics.
2018-02-14, 1:05 PM #7368
Originally posted by Eversor:
If I'm correctly inferring what you're talking about, it was also the Catholics' interpretation until the Second Vatican Council in 1962.


I don't know much about this history, but IIRC much of mainstream Christianity was anti-Semitic at that time.
2018-02-14, 1:06 PM #7369
It wasn't the official position of the Church that Jews weren't responsible for killing Christ until 1962.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-14, 1:08 PM #7370
And it probably took the Nazis to get them to concede that.

I don't see why anybody should be a fan of the Catholic Church.
2018-02-14, 1:54 PM #7371
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I don't see why anybody should be a fan of the Catholic Church.


Pro: today they're one of the great curators of continental European art and history, maintaining and displaying countless masterpieces from music to architecture.

Con: that artwork was created for a sacrilegious display of wealth and power during the height of the church's influence.

Pro: the economic drain caused by that display of wealth instigated the protestant reformation, and its priesthood of all believers paved the way to general literacy and education of the masses, and eventually the resurgence of democracy we enjoy today.

Con: they really, really didn't want that stuff to happen.

Pro: every even-numbered pope says some chill stuff from time to time;.
2018-02-15, 1:02 AM #7372
He's getting more popular...

former entrepreneur
2018-02-15, 1:07 AM #7373
Trump 2020 seems really likely to me. The reactionary Democrat rage will die off and Trump's **** will become normalized.
2018-02-15, 1:22 AM #7374
No, Trump is going to lose 2020. Calling it now.
2018-02-15, 1:30 AM #7375
Seems feasible to me that Trump wins in 2020. Ultimately, if the Republicans get slaughtered in the midterms it shouldn't make much of a difference. First term presidents who are elected with majorities in one or both houses often lose them in their first mid-term election and go on to be reelected for a second term.

On the other hand, does it really matter? It might even be better for the Democratic party in the long run if Trump is re-elected. The next recession could be really nasty, and if it doesn't come during this presidential term, it'll come during the next one. And if it doesn't come before 2020, the Democrat elected in 2020 will likely be blamed for it, even though Republican spending is currently making a future recession more difficult to combat. In some ways, John Kerry's loss in 2004 was fortuitous for the Democratic party, because it means we weren't held responsible for the Great Recession. If he had won, he probably would've lost reelection in 2008.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-15, 1:39 AM #7376
Democrats winning the House in 2018 could also turn into complacency.
former entrepreneur
2018-02-15, 5:41 AM #7377
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
No, Trump is going to lose 2020. Calling it now.


I think that's the likelier scenario, but I don't think it's going to be the wash many seem to think.

Too many people overestimate this country.
2018-02-15, 6:24 AM #7378
I think it's possible he doesn't even run in 2020. If he survives a full term, what else does he have to prove? He'll just meander off to his next venture.
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2018-02-15, 1:39 PM #7379
Deciding not to run gives him a chance to blame it on people not playing ball and him being the better man. Not how it will look to anyone with a brain, but that seems like something he could talk himself into.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2018-02-16, 10:54 AM #7380
oh russia!
former entrepreneur
2018-02-16, 11:30 AM #7381
https://twitter.com/DavidKlion/status/964576803582021632
former entrepreneur
2018-02-16, 11:42 AM #7382
Can you post a link to whatever it is you're reacting to?
2018-02-16, 1:12 PM #7383
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/russians-indicted-mueller-election-interference.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-top-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
former entrepreneur
2018-02-16, 1:14 PM #7384
much appreciated.
2018-02-16, 2:09 PM #7385
Sad. No collusion!
2018-02-16, 7:39 PM #7386
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Sad. No collusion!


It’s not the first round of indictments, it probably won’t be the last.
2018-02-16, 9:22 PM #7387
Oh, sure. I just thought I'd take the opportunity to mimic one of the many cliche's our Commander in Chief seems so fond of resorting to as a substitute for defending himself in full sentences.
2018-02-16, 9:47 PM #7388
I get angry about some dumb ****, but then I see the **** Peterson gets angry about, and lol

[https://i.redd.it/zjgnmjzqrng01.jpg]
2018-02-16, 10:26 PM #7389
which part does he object to?
2018-02-16, 10:29 PM #7390
This is just a shot in the dark, but, methinks that some righties in the commonwealth have a tad bit of rage pent up `bout the way things have gone in South Africa w.r.t. crime, government corruption, etc., and look back to the 'golden days' of apartheid with some amount of nostalgia and resentment toward black people.
2018-02-16, 10:50 PM #7391
South African apartheid was based on Canada's Indian Act (which is still in effect, bee tee dubs) so, yes, any Canadian who believes in the efficacy of these programs would have a serious problem with its end anywhere. It seems... strange that he would publicly object on that basis, though. I mean, I know quite well why he actually is objecting, I'm just not sure what reason he would claim. As far as I'm aware Nature has always had a few fluff pieces like that. It's not just research papers. The only legitimate complaint I can think of is that it's fluff, but even then it's hard to take seriously.
2018-02-16, 10:53 PM #7392
Speaking of Canada. The other day, I did a cursory web search on your infant mortality rate. Guess where the high numbers are coming from....
2018-02-16, 10:55 PM #7393
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I'm just not sure what reason he would claim. As far as I'm aware Nature has always had a few fluff pieces like that. It's not just research papers.


Some kind of culture war thing, maybe.

"cultural Marxists are ruining science, quick let's stop them"
2018-02-16, 11:05 PM #7394
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Speaking of Canada. The other day, I did a cursory web search on your infant mortality rate. Guess where the high numbers are coming from....


Nunavut.
2018-02-16, 11:08 PM #7395
Canada's infant mortality rate comes from prairie natives. Fact. Those are the natives hit hardest by the residential schools program, stuck on the most worthless land in remote, desolate regions. The more prairie natives a province has, the higher the infant mortality rate is. Utterly miserable lives, miserable state of things right now.

Trudeau seems committed to doing something about it, and as long as it looks like he's making progress the Liberal party will have my vote. Not that I'm super confident about it.
2018-02-16, 11:10 PM #7396
Also, I've never looked at Jordan Peterson's Twitter feed before. Based on the 10 minutes I spent scrolling through what he's posted, I've decided he's just yet another dime-a-dozen outraged idiot radical right-winger who doesn't know the difference between communism and socialism.
2018-02-16, 11:11 PM #7397
"I'm normal, it's everybody else. Everybody else is a radical leftist." - said the imbecile to nobody in particular
2018-02-16, 11:12 PM #7398
I hear that Twitter is a good way to address this nobody in particular guy (bigger audience than your local pub)
2018-02-16, 11:20 PM #7399
Jordan Peterson's twitter feed is extra salty about Damore's NLRB complaint rejection.

[quote=Jordan Peterson]So what about all the papers indicating gender differences, you absolute, appalling, ignorant fools? Scientists: make your decisions: it's either political correctness or science -- there's no way it's going to be both.[/quote]

Yeah, okay, gender differences are established by the scientific literature. And it's an established fact that Cathy in HR an ugly fat b*tch, but ya ain't gonna keep your job if you call her one to her face, are you? You stupid out-of-touch radical right-wing government employee. You wouldn't have a ****ing job if we didn't coddle useless social scientists with **** opinions. You couldn't get a job at a ****ing McDonalds talking the way you do, cock breathed knuckle dragger.

Ugh.

And that's not even covering how ****ing miserable stupid and naive he is to think the United ****ing States NLRB is ever going to rule against a termination that's been signed off by Google's attorneys. You think Google doesn't know what they're doing? You think the US government is going to side against a corporation in an at-will state unless the termination is clearly, unambiguously, and even admittedly for discriminatory reasons? **** off. You ****ing snowflake. Absolutely no clue how the real world works.
2018-02-16, 11:32 PM #7400
The only reason Jordan Peterson still has a job, after all he's done to harass his colleagues, is because his university is terrified of looking like they're politically biased. A private company would have ****ing destroyed his life ten minutes in. Representing the company in public like that, publicly criticizing his employer, harassing his coworkers. He'd have been fired instantly for violating his employment agreement, sued for breach of contract, sued for violating non-disparagement agreement. His books would be enjoined. He'd never get a job in the private sector ever again. Some ******* like this guy, his only hope in life is academia because despite his crowing and whining and simpering they are the only employers out there who would ever tolerate this kind of public conduct.
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