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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2018-10-06, 11:57 PM #11921
I was being serious that the surest way to move past electoral impediments to what is currently politically possible is pretty much by definition to go outside of the electoral process (e.g., by changing the way we vote, or changing who gets to vote). I was being slightly less serious when I implied that this was terribly profound.
2018-10-06, 11:58 PM #11922
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Or, wait. You know, I learned something today: conservatives aren't the cancer, they're just the mutated cells. Bashing them isn't going to help cure the patient.


Trump supporters are far worse than conservatives
2018-10-06, 11:58 PM #11923
(republicans have always been fascists tho)
2018-10-06, 11:59 PM #11924
Are fascists even conservatives? Earlier Jon`C suggested that conservatives play a role in stabilizing the status quo, for better or for worse. But what about neo-Nazis...
2018-10-07, 12:01 AM #11925
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Are fascists even conservatives? Earlier Jon`C suggested that conservatives play a role in stabilizing the status quo, for better or for worse. But what about neo-Nazis...


No. They appeal to conservatives over anything to the left, but are a kind of reactionary force.
2018-10-07, 12:03 AM #11926
Good to know.

Wookie, care to join in as we bash the fascists? Since because you're a true conservative and therefore aren't one of them or an apologist for them?
2018-10-07, 12:03 AM #11927
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Are fascists even conservatives? Earlier Jon`C suggested that conservatives play a role in stabilizing the status quo, for better or for worse. But what about neo-Nazis...


Neo nazis stabilize the existing social order. It’s a kind of destructive stability. The weak and upstarts are laid low so that the old elites from the in group can rule unchallenged. Neo nazis are conservatives who are just, like, ridiculously good at being conservative.

What’s the word I’m looking for

Ah

Anaphylaxis
2018-10-07, 12:07 AM #11928
What's interesting is how liberals would tell me before the election in 2016 that they were thrilled that Trump was "destroying the GOP". Of course, they had assumed he wouldn't win, and now he's still destroying something, but I'm not sure it's the GOP.
2018-10-07, 12:09 AM #11929
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Good to know.

Wookie, care to join in as we bash the fascists? Since because you're a true conservative and therefore aren't one of them or an apologist for them?


Yes wookie, join us as we mock the fascists for their obsessive militarism, hero worship, cowtowing to powerful madmen, and steadfast commitment to protectionism
2018-10-07, 12:12 AM #11930
lol those loony fascists and their military parades. Always with the military parades,
2018-10-07, 12:21 AM #11931
Originally posted by Jon`C:
lol those loony fascists and their military parades. Always with the military parades,


Marschiert In Amerika, or a Lee Greenwood marching edit anyone?
2018-10-07, 12:36 AM #11932
BTW, does anyone else feel like cringing when hearing God Bless the USA by Greenwood? It's weird to me when people feel all "deep" about it.

I can't even ****ing tell if this is supposed to be satire:



Like there are people who see these images and think "yes, this is good???"
2018-10-07, 12:40 AM #11933
It's pretty cheesy, but I'm sure many people relate to it if they happen to hear it. It's strangely reductionist to my ears, though: it seems to be saying that we're only as good as our troops are.

And yeah, I always cringed when I heard that song.
2018-10-07, 1:02 AM #11934
Every time someone appears on TV and says "God bless America", I'm suddenly acutely aware of where my wallet is.
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2018-10-07, 8:41 AM #11935
Lee Greenwood was in town a few weeks ago at a local winery that has free concerts every couple weeks or so. We stayed home. For patriotic music I prefer Madison Rising.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2018-10-07, 12:56 PM #11936
Originally posted by Reid:
BTW, does anyone else feel like cringing when hearing God Bless the USA by Greenwood?


They playing this one in da club? How often do you actually hear this song?
former entrepreneur
2018-10-07, 12:57 PM #11937
Originally posted by Eversor:
They playing this one in da club? How often do you actually hear this song?


When watching Trump's Mississippi rally, lol.
2018-10-07, 12:59 PM #11938
former entrepreneur
2018-10-07, 2:43 PM #11939
Originally posted by Eversor:


10/10, lol
2018-10-07, 3:42 PM #11940
i've said it before but that stand up album is such an incredible time capsule that brings you right back to what the years after 9/11 felt like
former entrepreneur
2018-10-08, 1:32 AM #11941
Originally posted by Eversor:
i've said it before but that stand up album is such an incredible time capsule that brings you right back to what the years after 9/11 felt like


I listened to the whole album and realized I'd heard it all before. Like maybe in 2006 or something, a long time ago.
2018-10-09, 7:42 AM #11942
Republicans have no morals.
2018-10-09, 8:02 AM #11943
The weird thing is, Democrats will keep failing because they keep thinking Republicans have done something "too drastic", like they think the popular anti-Trump sentiment will translate directly into victories without any work.

The fascists have basically won because Democrats are so ****ing bad at responding to them.
2018-10-09, 8:06 AM #11944
Originally posted by Reid:
Republicans have no morals.
That’s a bit like saying “locusts have no morals”.

Of course they don’t. They’re just animals, whipped into an all-consuming frenzy.
2018-10-09, 8:21 AM #11945
Originally posted by Jon`C:
That’s a bit like saying “locusts have no morals”.

Of course they don’t. They’re just animals, whipped into an all-consuming frenzy.


Whoa now, that's not a fair comparison. Locusts have a useful place in the ecosystem.
2018-10-09, 9:11 AM #11946
I think my favorite way of seeing the "owning of the libs" would be if Nikki Haley is the first female president.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-09, 9:49 AM #11947
Originally posted by Eversor:
I think my favorite way of seeing the "owning of the libs" would be if Nikki Haley is the first female president.


I think my favourite way of seeing the “owning of the libs” would be if the means of production are seized and returned to the workers.
2018-10-09, 11:06 AM #11948
Agh, can't we just force companies to more equitably distribute their profits without changing the structure of organizations?
former entrepreneur
2018-10-09, 11:12 AM #11949
Originally posted by Eversor:
Agh, can't we just force companies to more equitably distribute their profits without changing the structure of organizations?


It would be better than not doing it
2018-10-09, 11:28 AM #11950
Originally posted by Eversor:
Agh, can't we just force companies to more equitably distribute their profits without changing the structure of organizations?


Also real talk: why is the current organization preferred?
2018-10-09, 12:02 PM #11951
Originally posted by Eversor:
Agh, can't we just force companies to more equitably distribute their profits without changing the structure of organizations?
No.

I could expound but the conversation would ultimately lead to: no. If you’re curious why specific policies won’t work I’d be happy to explain.

Originally posted by Reid:
Also real talk: why is the current organization preferred?
I’m not speaking for Eversor, but here’s the answer in practice. If you want an economy that is more stable and is directed toward improving quality of life for the people, they aren’t preferred: cooperatives are more productive, more durable, and pay their workers much more. The only ‘disadvantage’ is that senior managers make ~2x as much as an average worker instead of ~200x as much like they do in a conventional company, which, of course, is the only difference that matters.
2018-10-09, 12:08 PM #11952
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I’m not speaking for Eversor, but here’s the answer in practice. If you want an economy that is more stable and is directed toward improving quality of life for the people, they aren’t preferred: cooperatives are more productive, more durable, and pay their workers much more. The only ‘disadvantage’ is that senior managers make ~2x as much as an average worker instead of ~200x as much like they do in a conventional company, which, of course, is the only difference that matters.


I always wonder about this. Lots of the metrics for cooperatives are about their microeconomic performance - profits, etc. - but has anyone really done any work correlating workplace structure with mental health? I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher, but I don't think much data exists on that.
2018-10-09, 2:14 PM #11953
Originally posted by Reid:
I always wonder about this. Lots of the metrics for cooperatives are about their microeconomic performance - profits, etc. - but has anyone really done any work correlating workplace structure with mental health? I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher, but I don't think much data exists on that.


Not as far as I know, but poverty and economic precariousness are well studied for their effects on mental and overall health. Cooperatives improve both poverty and job security so they obviously improve mental health as well.

It’s most important to study the efficiency of cooperatives because that is the only thing bootlickers are willing to talk about. They certainly don’t give a **** about mental health. A job that drives its workers insane can’t be that bad since people are willing to do it after all!!
2018-10-09, 2:16 PM #11954
Originally posted by Jon`C:
No.

I could expound but the conversation would ultimately lead to: no. If you’re curious why specific policies won’t work I’d be happy to explain.


Alright well the conclusion is much less interesting to me than the argumentation but I'll play ball anyway.Ok, so tell me why this is wrong:

Originally posted by Reid:
Also real talk: why is the current organization preferred?


Division of labor is more efficient at scale. It's more effective to have people whose specialization is to make executive decisions than to have less informed people making them collectively.
former entrepreneur
2018-10-09, 2:25 PM #11955
Originally posted by Eversor:
Ok, so tell me why this is wrong:



Division of labor is more efficient at scale. It's more effective to have people whose specialization is to make executive decisions than to have less informed people making them collectively.


Because of the principal-agent problem. Even orthodox (liberal) economists acknowledge it is a problem that is unsolvable under capitalism.
2018-10-09, 2:38 PM #11956
On that note, I really don’t understand why people think workers can’t understand their own business, or make effective decisions about their own working conditions.

Does that apply to YOU? Are you so incompetent at your own work that you can’t decide whether someone is an effective manager, or whether your office floor plan is distracting you from getting your job done? Or are you attributing it to someone else? Perhaps some platonic ideal of an idiot coworker who definitely exists*?
2018-10-09, 3:29 PM #11957
Originally posted by Eversor:
Alright well the conclusion is much less interesting to me than the argumentation but I'll play ball anyway.Ok, so tell me why this is wrong:


Let me be clearer.

I agree that the argumentation is more interesting. I’m just not personally willing to enumerate every possible doomed liberal/social democrat policy idea to preserve capitalism just to explain why it won’t work. My offer was sincere. I consider it a decent compromise, if your question was also sincere - can we fix this problem without changing existing organizations (which is equivalent to abolishing capitalism)?
2018-10-09, 3:42 PM #11958
Originally posted by Jon`C:
On that note, I really don’t understand why people think workers can’t understand their own business, or make effective decisions about their own working conditions.

Does that apply to YOU? Are you so incompetent at your own work that you can’t decide whether someone is an effective manager, or whether your office floor plan is distracting you from getting your job done? Or are you attributing it to someone else? Perhaps some platonic ideal of an idiot coworker who definitely exists*?


This is one of the cases where propaganda is seriously effective. "Everybody around me but me is a moron, better not work together". Oh boy is your boss happy.
2018-10-09, 3:54 PM #11959
Originally posted by Reid:
This is one of the cases where propaganda is seriously effective. "Everybody around me but me is a moron, better not work together". Oh boy is your boss happy.


No, obviously capitalists are simply the correct people to make all economic choices. That’s why they were born rich.
2018-10-09, 4:07 PM #11960
Don’t organize! You’ll get dragged down by all of the morons!! Today we’re free to pay you 5% more than them, but with a union you’ll make the same amount of money!! (Spoiler: it’s twice as much)
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